Mesaĝoj: 54
Lingvo: English
cellus (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 07:20:46
Hoping this will shed some light on the problem.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 09:16:08
cellus:My feeling tells me I have to put in an "ol" after "antaŭ".You are correct. Ol goes after antaŭ, when you are talking about one action occurring before another. The other main use of ol, as you say, is in comparison, where we would say "than" in English. Here's a page from PMEG on antaŭ ol, which also has links to its comparative usage.
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 11:27:07
Miland:Ol goes after antaŭ, when you are talking about one action occurring before another.I feel this is an incomplete way of explaining it because it is not always the case. I.e, talking about one action happening before another does not always require a subphrase, and therefore does not require "ol". PMEG has the example Antaŭ lia alveno ni manĝis. → Antaŭ ol li alvenis, ni manĝis. Both phrases are "talking about one action occurring before another", yet you don't need to use "ol" to convey that idea, as the first phrase shows.
The purpose of "ol" is to introduce a subphrase. A subphrase will contain a verb, which of course is an "action" but the point of using "ol" still remains nothing more than linking two phrases together, which is simply a grammatical matter. The fact that a phrase happens to contain an action is just incedental.
Miland:The other main use of ol, as you say, is in comparisonNot sure why you describe this as an "other" use. When you say "antaŭ ol" that is a comparison. Or do you see it differently?
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 12:09:00
By 'comparison' I mean of degree, as in adjectives, and so I don't regard antaŭ ol as a comparison.
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 12:48:34
Miland:When I said "occurring", not "occurrence", I referred to a verb in a dynamic sense. Thus I was not using the infinitive as a noun.Ok, if you're excluding action-nouns from your definition of "action" then I guess I agree, though I wouldn't define an action that way myself. "Alveno" is still an action, even if grammatically it's a noun.
Miland:By 'comparison' I mean of degree, as in adjectives, and so I don't regard antaŭ ol as a comparison.But surely a comparison doesn't have to be limited to degrees? I can compare two times, how is that any less of a comparison than comparing the degree of two qualities?
PMEG:Ol plej ofte montras komparojn kunlabore kun pli aŭ alia. Ankaŭ en antaŭ ol temas pri komparo. Oni komparas du tempojn. Unu el tiuj tempoj estas pli frua, do antaŭa.Of course that's not to say "this is right because it's in PMEG", but I think common sense is enough to confirm the above.
Trans:
Ol usually shows a comparison together with pli or alia. Also antaŭ ol shows a comparison. Two times are begin compared. One of the times is earlier than the other.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 13:38:36
cellus:My feeling tells me I have to put in an "ol" after "antaŭ". Esperanto sees antaŭ as a kind of comparition, I think, but you cannot say "post ol", you have got to say "post kiam". I guess "antaŭ kiam" would work, even if I haven't seen it. I'll have to take a look at Bertilo's Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko.You can certainly say "post ol". It's considered correct and there are many examples of it in Esperanto literature. However, it's true that "post kiam" is the usual term in modern style.
Hoping this will shed some light on the problem.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 15:26:14
tommjames:I would say that PMEG is drawing a comparison by inference from the use of antaŭ ol. That is, using it implies that X estas pli frue ol Y. The latter is the comparison itself, and uses ol only.PMEG:Ol plej ofte montras komparojn kunlabore kun pli aŭ alia. Ankaŭ en antaŭ ol temas pri komparo. Oni komparas du tempojn. Unu el tiuj tempoj estas pli frua, do antaŭa.
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tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 16:09:18
Miland:That is, using it implies that X estas pli frue ol Y. The latter is the comparison itself, and uses ol only.I find this a little difficult to parse. Are you saying that "X estas pli frue ol Y" is comparative, but something like "X okazis antaŭ ol Y okazis" isn't?[/quote]
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 19:18:03
tommjames:Are you saying that "X estas pli frue ol Y" is comparative, but something like "X okazis antaŭ ol Y okazis" isn't?Yes. You parsed it correctly!
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-05 19:42:53
Miland:Then I really have no idea what you're getting at. If a construction implies an idea that is comparative then how can you meaningfully say that that thing is not itself comparative? I'm lost.tommjames:Are you saying that "X estas pli frue ol Y" is comparative, but something like "X okazis antaŭ ol Y okazis" isn't?Yes. You parsed it correctly!