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Having problems

de xBlackWolfx, 2010-septembro-30

Mesaĝoj: 54

Lingvo: English

Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-01 10:52:38

al mi plaĉas

That phase even when directly translated into english makes perfect sense.

To me is pleasing

You will also see the sentence "plaĉas al mi" alot which also means "Is pleasing to me"

Genjix (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-01 12:43:39

I think if you are using 'plaĉas al mi' then you should probably not be using it and be using 'mi ŝatas' instead.

X plaĉas = X is pleasing
Mi ŝatas X = I like X

In english you wouldn't deliberately choose the verb pleasing to express liking something. You would just say 'I like X', not 'X is pleasing to me'

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-01 12:50:41

Don't feel that you have to use that "plaĉas" construction. You need to understand it when you see it used but feel free to use "Mi ŝatas X" instead. It's also very frequently used and means nearly the same thing (in modern Esperanto).

Esperanto has a very free word order but you will find that people usually stick to the same word order, unless they are trying to sound poetic or elegant, or unless they are trying to emphasize a certain word. The standard "neutral" Esperanto word order is actually pretty similar to English (though there are some definite differences).

horsto (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-01 16:01:02

@xBlackWolfx: Probably your problem is that you still think learning new words is the most important part of learning a language. I think that's wrong, you cannot translate word by word from one language to another. You have to learn how to express your thoughts in the new language, that means you have to learn the grammar and the usual idioms.
And that is the most interesting part of learning a new language, I think. Learning new words happens automatically when you use the language.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-01 19:29:40

This just occurred to me. xBlackwolfx, have you done the course "Bildoj kaj demandoj"? It seems to me that maybe you could benefit from the kind of course that starts out very basic and teaches by example, moving slowly from very simple sentences to more advanced one. It could be that the learning approach of learning a bunch of vocabulary and a bunch of grammatical rules, and then trying to read a text, doesn't work well for you.

3rdblade (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-02 04:16:38

tommjames:then I'd say there's a good chance they are just letting norms of another language affect their thinking.
AKA 'L1 interference', the bane of many a language teacher and student.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-02 09:33:37

On the subject of 'plaĉas al', I have always thought it very sexy how the French say Je te plais? (ĉu mi plaĉas al vi?) with the meaning of Do you fancy me.

A whole different ball game to ŝati.

I'm pretty sure that 'mi ŝatis vin' in Esperanto doesn't have sexual connotions.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-02 11:01:33

3rdblade:
tommjames:then I'd say there's a good chance they are just letting norms of another language affect their thinking.
AKA 'L1 interference', the bane of many a language teacher and student.
Not necessarily - I for example did not like "antaŭ ol" when I first saw it simply because I see it as superfluous, not as an English speaker but as a human database for equally superfluous language grammar trivia. "Antaŭ kiam", although I did not see whether that can actually be used in the place as "antaŭ ol", made much more sense, because to me, "antaŭ ol" is a complication (entanglement more like?) based on two grammatical uses from seperate places - "ol", being famous for its use in comparison, and "antaŭ" being famous for stating that something is before something else in a sequence.

In this case, it's less L1 and more the problem of a new language feature not "matching up" with existing language features stored in the mind, or so I see it as.
But anyway - ahhh, L1 intereference. Both horrific for teachers and learners, but a symptom of a marvellous feature of the human mind lango.gif.

Regarding the conjunction vs. preposition vs. certain adverbs distinction problem, there is to some extent a justification for that - it seems to be an outworking of the human mind combining what it deems over focussed word categories, and combining the lot into a category of "relationship" words. Learners likely have to overcome this barrier to learn Esperanto well, since it does not transcend this issue, rather subscribing quite strongly to a very European and Latin/Greek biased view on how grammar works.
tl;dr and ergo - once a learner is able to overcome a rule like that, it should help them understand the western view of grammar quite well.

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@ Erinja:
Is "Mi volus ludi korbopilkon antaŭ kiam mi devus iri hejmen" correct in using "antaŭ kiam", or was this mention of "antaŭ kiam" intended for another use?

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-03 20:06:42

ceigered:... based on two grammatical uses from seperate places - "ol", being famous for its use in comparison, and "antaŭ" being famous for stating that something is before something else in a sequence.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it isn't the fault of the word "ol" that in your mind, it's "famous" for something that is only part of its meaning. "Ol" has a very broad meaning, much broader than the meaning of "than" in English, so you have to ensure that in your mind, you don't consider "ol" to be the equivalent of "than".
@ Erinja:
Is "Mi volus ludi korbopilkon antaŭ kiam mi devus iri hejmen" correct in using "antaŭ kiam", or was this mention of "antaŭ kiam" intended for another use?
Your sentence is a little weird due to the verb tenses. "I would want to play basket ball before I would have to go home"? It's completely without verb tense, it's 100% hypothetical, as if your friend told you that she preferred to play basketball after she had to go home, and as if you told her that if you were in her place, you would like to play basketball before you would have to go home.

That's why I'd personally put "devos" instead of "devus".

Other than that, yes, you could put "antaŭ kiam" in this sentence. But it sounds a little weird because we normally put "antaŭ ol". I'd word this sentence as "Mi volus ludi korbopilkon antaŭ ol mi devos iri hejmen". But "antaŭ kiam" would be grammatically fine, it's just an unusual choice.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-04 08:10:20

Thanks for that break down for me Erinja.

I was actually intending it to be entirely hypothetical in the sense you understood it to be in, rather than "Mi volas ...i antaŭ ol mi devos iri hejmen". Don't ask what's going through my mind when I make these crazy example sentences, I don't know either rido.gif.

I think I'll use antaŭ kiam a bit simply because I love that more than I wish to sound normal or be understood, but I'll be "writing over" the bits of my memory that think it should be "antaŭ" as a conjunction with the correct "antaŭ ol".

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