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tiu/tio

Genjix-tól, 2010. október 2.

Hozzászólások: 21

Nyelv: English

Genjix (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 12:45:26

i get kio/kiu, but i tend to mix tiu/tio arbitrarily a lot and the distinction to me is kinda blurry.

care for any examples?

Miland (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 13:34:45

Tiu is used for an individual (living or not) which is clearly defined e.g. tiu domo, tiu homo, tiu taso, "that house, that man, that cup". Tio is used for something which is not so clearly defined, e.g. 'Shall we go to the pub?' 'Yes, I would like that.' Ĉu ni iru al la trinkejo? Jes, tio plaĉus al mi. Note that in the last example, "that" is less clearly defined than if you asked "Did you like that beer?" "Yes, I liked it very much." Ĉu tiu biero plaĉis al vi? Jes, mi tre ŝatis ĝin.

qwertz (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 13:37:56

Sylvain Lelarge mentioned "i" (English "eee") like "individum" at his Korelativo Danco.

Korelativa danco parto unua

Korelativa danco parto dua

Hopefully that gives some motivation about that topic.

RiotNrrd (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 16:40:38

I find that the best way to keep them straight is to remember that "tio" needs to be treated like a noun. And a noun can't modify another noun.

So, you cannot say "tio hundo" (for example) because that's asking one noun to modify another - instead you have to use "tiu". However, if you're not going to directly modify a noun, then you use "tio"; "tio" can stand on its own.

Kio estas tio?
Tio estas hundo.
Tiu hundo estas bela.
Jes, mi ŝatas tion*.
Mi ankaŭ ŝatas tiun belan hundon.

Additionally, "tiu" should be used when referring to a person, rather than "tio"; "tio" is reserved for nonhuman things, and so would be insulting to use in reference to a person in the same way that using the word "it" to refer to them would be.

So... if you're going to modify a noun, or refer to a person, use "tiu", otherwise use "tio".
----------

* I believe it is acceptable to also use "tiu(n)" here because in the context of the conversation it is clear that a specific dog is being referred to (but has just been left out of the sentence).

horsto (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 16:49:06

qwertz:
Hopefully that gives some motivation about that topic.
Not at all.
I seriously hope that not too many people waste their time by watching videos like that instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions.
In Germany we say: Why explaining something understandable when you can complicate things.

qwertz (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 18:15:34

horsto:
qwertz:
Hopefully that gives some motivation about that topic.
Not at all.
I seriously hope that not too many people waste their time by watching videos like that instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions.
In Germany we say: Why explaining something understandable when you can complicate things.
In result: These videos doesn't fit your personal needs. But maybe it fits the needs of others, richtig/right? Yes, that's correct - because - it fits at least the needs of 4 people (plus the people seen at this video), because we did that Korrelativo Danco onsite with a professional instructor who's quite active and accepted inside the DEJ. And we had a lot of fun during that. Diable/Verdammt noch mal.

So, please, let the reader of my posted links judging by oneselves. For your interest/FYI: It's named "opinion's tolerance" and "open-mind".

Thanks.

Btw.:
horsto:
qwertz:
In Germany we say: Why explaining something understandable when you can complicate things.
Yes, I know that phrase. But pleeeeeeeeese, don't include me inside your generalisations.

There excist a laconic German proverb: "Why explaining something understandable when you can complicate things."

"Why handling matters the easy way, if someone can do it difficult."

darkweasel (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 20:43:50

I'm translating a message I once wrote at the German-language forum.

---
- If there's a noun afterwards that the correlative relates to, I use -u. tiu hundo (that dog), kiu kato (which cat)
- If there's no noun afterwards but I use the correlative as a relative pronoun that relates to a noun, I use -u. la birdo, kiun mi ŝatas (the bird I like), la komputiloj, kiuj estas malrapidaj (the computers which are slow)
- If there's no noun afterwards but I could meaningfully insert one, so that one is implied (most of the time the noun is, in such a case, homo, persono, ulo etc.), I use -u. kiu (who), tiun (that one)
- If the correlative is used as a relative pronoun that relates to a correlative with -o, I use -o. mi ŝatas ĉion, kio estas ridiga (I like everything which is fun)
- If the word relates to a whole sentence, I use -o. mi trajnis al Londono, kaj tio estis tre multekosta (I went by train to London and that was very expensive)
- If the word relates to an "abstract concept" (so in most other cases), I use -o. kion vi diris? (what did you say?)
---

There are surely better ways to explain the thing, but I hope my explanation helps a bit.

Genjix (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 22:55:35

great thread. Riot's stuff helped and esp darkweasel was very very good. Thanks all.

horsto (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 2. 23:28:45

qwertz:
So, please, let the reader of my posted links judging by oneselves. For your interest/FYI: It's named "opinion's tolerance" and "open-mind".

Thanks.
Perhaps you should consider that I'm also a reader of your "posted links". I really don't know why I shouldn't have the right to express my opinion.

qwertz (Profil megtekintése) 2010. október 3. 0:07:11

horsto:
qwertz:
So, please, let the reader of my posted links judging by oneselves. For your interest/FYI: It's named "opinion's tolerance" and "open-mind".

Thanks.
Perhaps you should consider that I'm also a reader of your "posted links". I really don't know why I shouldn't have the right to express my opinion.
Okay, probably an inner-German culture clash again. In detail king-individualism vs. fellowism(?). From my DE-TH viewpoint I understand your comment this way that the Korelativo Danco links I posted and Sylvain Lelarge's work are in your opinion scrap (waste). That's your opinion but telling that other people is from my viewpoint arrogant. I would never do something what makes me looking arrogant. But I also understand that the word "arrogant" not excists for king-individualists. They are the arrogance personalized.

"I seriously hope that not too many people waste their time by watching videos like that instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions."

horsto:
qwertz:
Hopefully that gives some motivation about that topic.
Not at all.
I seriously hope that not too many people waste their time by watching videos like that instead of simply regarding the table and reading the definitions.
In Germany we say: Why explaining something understandable when you can complicate things.

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