Mesaĝoj: 65
Lingvo: English
Shanemk (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-29 23:06:34
Illuminati? I'd like to know.
Negative on the apostrophe.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 00:53:51
Shanemk:.. why aren't any new words that are put into Esperanto, deliberately taken from languages that Esperanto doesn't have many of? Chinese, etc...In theory new words could be adopted from such languages. But any proposed neologismoj would have to win the approval of Esperanto speakers generally. Did you have any examples in mind?
Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 01:17:04
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 03:48:43
I think you didn't mean to say that the UEA has any influence - they don't - I think you meant to say the Academy of Esperanto (Akademio de Esperanto), which is not affiliated with the UEA.
The Akademio is the keeper of the 'official' dictionary, although many words used that aren't in this dictionary. They regularly update the official dictionary with new usages, and they recommend (or discourage!) use of one word form or another. They also have a question answering service that any Esperanto speaker can use to get a reliable answer to a grammar question (although these answers do not constitute official decisions of the Academy)
The Academy's recommendations are not only based on usage but also based on adherence to the fundamental documents that make up the base of Esperanto; if there were to be a popular usage that went against the Fundamento, the Academy wouldn't approve, simply because it's popular. However they do add new words to the dictionary that have entered widespread use.
I would say that in the Esperanto community there's great respect for the Academy, BUT that doesn't always translate to abiding by the Academy's decisions. Many people don't know (or don't even care) what the Academy says on a certain matter.
Demian (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 09:33:35
Shanemk:...but why aren't any new words that are put into Esperanto, deliberately taken from languages that Esperanto doesn't have many of? Chinese, etc...It has become a sort of an unwritten rule to borrow new words from European languages only.
A possible reason for this tendency could be that there are not many speakers of Esperanto who do not speak a European language as their mother tongue or are not proficient in a European language.
Moreover, if I were to introduce a word, say ĉaĉo (meaning the brother of my father) or mamo (the brother of my mother) - both simultaneously from Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu - a lot of fingers would be raised and a spew of possible combinations would be presented and not all of them would be in a very kind manner!
To avoid all the trouble which a neologism from an Asian, African or a Native American language could arise, a lot of speakers of those languages prefer to not introduce new words from their own languages.
A good discussion about the same topic is found in an issue of Irana Esperantisto (#7 2004-04-01). If you are interested, here is a link: Irana Esperanto
Open the first issue, from left, in the second row and read the article Kiel Egaligi la (mal)Facilecon de Esperanto por ĉiuj?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 14:25:25
This is why, as the article mentions, it is preferable to derive new words from existing Esperanto roots as much as possible.
I have heard of speakers of Asian languages making neologisms to name foods and everyday items that may not be as common in the west. I would certainly do the same if I were them. I have heard of the word "haŝioj" (chopsticks) being used in Japan rather than the usual "manĝbastonetoj". I don't have a problem with this, though it is preferable to know both a neologism and a derived term, to be able to explain the word to a foreign Esperantist who might not know your neologism. Similarly, if an Asian Esperantist doesn't know the word "biologio", it's useful also to be familiar with the derived term "vivscienco".
However I am generally not in great favor of neologisms, period, from whatever language. I certainly wouldn't support taking random words from random languages, "just because".
Demian (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 15:59:28
erinja: However I am generally not in great favor of neologisms, period, from whatever language.I totally agree with you. Unless, it's absolutely necessary, neologisms should be avoided.
erinja: I certainly wouldn't support taking random words from random languages, "just because".I'd like you to expound here. I didn't get the meaning of "just because."
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 16:17:56
Demian:I'd like you to expound here. I didn't get the meaning of "just because."In the simplest terms, what I meant was that you can't force the creation of neologisms to include words from this language or that language. So if you try to force neologism creation to pull words from more diverse languages, it won't work.
Some background on why I said that:
I looked over the recommended article in Irana Esperantisto. The article made some great suggestions regarding how we should avoid neologisms. But it also said that we should make a point of distributing creation of neologisms among world languages, in rough proportion to the number of speakers of those languages. I am against this idea. Number one, because there is no central authority that creates neologisms anyway! Neologisms are created by everyday people; if they catch on, they might be officialized someday, and if they don't catch on, then it doesn't really matter anyway because no one will be using them (If you create a new word and no-one uses it, does your word really exist?).
Esperanto's main base of speakers today mostly speaks European languages. In the future, if more native speakers of non-European languages learn Esperanto, and if the speaker base shifts to another part of the world, then I think creation of neologisms will naturally shift as well. It is a shift that must happen naturally, no one can force it. People will do what they want to do; they won't start using a bunch of random neologisms from different world languages just because the Academy of Esperanto recommended it. That's why I prefer to focus on using as few neologisms as possible. Neologisms will always exist and they do have their place but they make a lot of things more complicated than necessary.
Demian (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 17:06:27
Forcing neologisms may not work but I believe it'd not be against the FUNDAMENTO if neologisms from Xhosa or Quenchua catch on in future, isn't it?
darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-novembro-30 17:26:01
Demian:Forcing neologisms may not work but I believe it'd not be against the FUNDAMENTO if neologisms from Xhosa or Quenchua catch on in future, isn't it?No, but this does not make a lot of sense.
Esperanto has enough words for basic terms. More complicated things should be, wherever this is easily possible, derived from what already exists. If this is not easily possible, then the word understood by most people in the world should be used (avoiding collisions with existing roots).
Since most new things today get their international names from European languages, Esperanto should also use these names, and not a name that only a few languages use.