Mesaĝoj: 83
Lingvo: English
Genjix (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 19:02:26
sudanglo:Even given certain difficulties in some countries, it seems to me that arguing for Esperanto on an educational basis stands a much greater chance than arguing for it as the world's, or Europe's, lingua franca.Hahahaha! Beautiful! Great points. Couldn't disagree at all.
1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 20:46:31
RiotNrrd:The last US president who spoke a foreign language competently was Franklin Roosevelt. It actually hurt John Kerry's candidacy when he was foolish enough to speak French in public.
The US, unfortunately, seems to have a strong contingent of paranoid conspiracy-oriented mouthbreathers who most likely would see Esperanto as something "communist" (or "socialist", or "fascist" - take your pick, as they don't actually appear to know what these words mean, and tend to use them interchangeably). These people are stupid, but they are also, unfortunately, very loud and overly aggressive. And there are more of them than seems reasonable in a modern technological nation.
Even in the left-leaning atmosphere of academia, where everyone is acutely aware of "white privilege", "male privilege" and "European privilege", they are tone deaf to the very possibility of anglophone privilege.
Todd
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 20:59:05
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 20:59:37
sudanglo:In fact, I reject this premise. As I see it, there is an Esperanto culture. It's important to remember what a culture is: It's a body of knowledge and tradition transmitted from one generation to the next. Esperanto has that. We have a history, complete with heroes, villains, and mythology. We are a diaspora, held together by more than just the language.
3. It has no culture - never mind, there is enough translated literature (prose and poems), and direct contact possibilities with other countries, to introduce the pupil to the idea of other cultures, and to see the relationship between language and the expression of ideas.
If and when anyone asks me why I am interested in Esperanto, this is what I talk about. I love Esperanto because I love the culture of Esperanto, and I am thrilled to be able to participate in this phenomenon. I'm lucky enough to live at a time when it's actually happening. I'm able to be part of an experiment that turned into a culture.
For me, it's not about Esperanto being practical or educational. It's about Esperanto being unique, special, and amazing.
Todd
Genjix (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 21:06:30
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 21:22:27
Genjix:but then you might as well have learnt klingon if that's your defense. Not everyone is thinking like the people who learnt Esperanto- most people are suspicious by idealistic claims and see them as scammy or unrealistic.My claims are less idealistic than grand statements about Esperanto's value as an auxiliary language (very limited) or educational method (not well documented). But no, Klingon is not yet at the stage where it can claim to have generated a culture of its own. Klingon is a cultural artifact, as is Quenya. It is part of a fictional-world culture. I have nothing against that, and it may turn out that Klingon will survive to have a kind of cultural life of its own, but it's not there yet.
I think it's more than interesting that since the very beginning, Esperanto has attracted writers of considerable talent, who produce original Esperanto literature. There is something about the language that appeals to creative people. In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes of the Ido movement was to discourage this sort of thing, opting for a more purely pragmatic orientation. As I say, maybe Klingon will also attract that kind of talent, and generate its own literature, but it hasn't done so yet.
Todd
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 21:42:33
I was just pointing out how one might deal with common arguments against Esperanto by side-lining the issues rather than getting bogged down with combatting them directly.
Personally, and this is just my personal viewpoint, I'm not a great fan of Esperanto's culture in the sense you have described. I would just like to see a hell of a lot more people using it (including many more attractive feisty women). I'd like it to be more 'normal' to speak Esperanto.
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 22:13:14
I'm not a fan of all of Esperanto culture--the "kumbaya" aspect can be cloying. Some of the literature isn't much to my liking. But my sense is that all of these things are a large part of what has kept Esperanto alive, and continue to propel it into the future.
I once had an online discussion with an Ido adherent in which I made an unkind remark. I said that Ido has had over 100 years to show the world that it is a superior alternative to Esperanto. It started by attracting some of the main figures of the Esperanto movement. Yet today, it lingers on the edge of extinction. It's time to move on.
It was unkind and hypocritical. One could say much the same about Esperanto itself. It has had over 120 years to show that world that it is superior to English or any other natural language, but in that time English has made far greater strides. But Esperanto doesn't appear to be on the edge of extinction. Maybe Ido isn't either; I don't really know. I have no illusion that the relative success of Esperanto has anything to do with its linguistic details. On the contrary, if Zamenhof had embraced the reforms that Couturat and de Beaufront favored, I have no doubt we'd all be happily speaking Ido today, and calling it Esperanto.
No, there was something else going on, and that something else was, I believe, a culture that wasn't about to go away. The "nur lingvo" stance of the Ido leaders simple didn't bring about the kind of culture that would attract the creative and emotional energy that Esperanto did, and still does.
As for attractive and feisty women, you'll need to start a new thread about that.
Todd
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-08 23:35:45
I recall that some time back I was attending a national convention in New York, and one of the items on the program was a sing-along. And nearly all of the songs were about peace or about Esperanto (or about how the world would be so peaceful if only everyone spoke Esperanto). I wanted to throw up. I managed to get through a couple songs and then I had to flee to another room of the convention venue (where I found Don Harlow and a couple of other "singalong refugees" and we had a lovely conversation that had nothing to do with Esperanto as a means of solving the world's problems).
I love the creative, informal, "be yourself" aspect of Esperanto, that people feel comfortable whipping out their guitar and singing a song. That someone can show up wearing a sparkly green star dress and no one will laugh at them. But I could really do without the songs, poems, and books (I'm looking at you, Fajron sentas mi interne) claiming that learning Esperanto will solve all of your problems. [note for newbies: it won't]
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-januaro-09 04:54:42
- What's the kumbaya aspect? I know some church song that goes alogn the lines of "kumbaya my lord, kumbayaaaaa", but how does that translate to EO? (side note, just found out that "kumbaya" means "come by here", interesting evolution of the en language there!)
- Regarding American politicians avoiding foreign languages, is there not some "rising star" at the moment who's making inroads with the hispanics by giving speeches in English and Spanish? I guess though that could get problematic, since there are bound to be those in the south who want such "antics back south of the border where they belong", where as I suppose those in the north who are more open to the idea of promoting the hispanic american cause because there's no threat as far as they're concerned... But for me, I thought that was pretty cool, I mean, the dude's still a politician so one must take his words with a pinch of salt, but it shows that the idea of taking something not normally seen as being part of the core of America and "making" it part of said core is possible, at least on the surface.
That's a foreigner's view point though.
attractive and feisty womenWait, is this related to teaching primary school kids Esperanto
"Hey kids, learn Esperanto and pick up attractive European babes and hunks"