This is a continuation of a discussion that veered off from the "improvements" thread.

sudanglo:Well, Todd, linguists can be a pain and especially their theories of language.

Any proper academic would realise that any theory of language would have to accommodate Esperanto (which is a language of homo sapiens) rather than ignore it.

As a proper academic , but not a linguist, I agree. Much as I admire Chomsky's pioneering work, his statement that Esperanto isn't a language is absurd. But rest assured that that single stray remark will convince a lot of people for a long time, such is his influence.

The Australian initiative seems to be aimed at primary schools, maybe sensibly, since university academics might be less concerned with what goes on at this level.

That may be so, and I hope it is. I'm still inclined to think that the bureaucrats will consult the profs about any such program.

In the UK, and I believe some other countries, there is the Springboard project - which does not bring Esperanto into conflict with Language teachers since the thrust of the argument there is that Esperanto serves to facilitate the learning of national languages. In other words its value is as a stepping stone to foreign language learning.

I'm skeptical of this, as well, but I don't have any data other than my own experience. I learned French in high school, long before I encountered Esperanto. But I studied Spanish as an adult,after studying Esperanto. I found that knowing Esperanto lowered my frustration threshold for the study of Spanish. I became impatient and annoyed at what I perceived as the "defects" of Spanish. Esperanto taught me to see "defects" rather than just rules and exceptions. For example, when you use a transitive verb in Spanish, if its object is a person, you must also use the preposition 'a'; otherwise not. Insanity!

Well, maybe that's just me. I think there has been some attempt to study the "propadeutic" effect of E-o for further language study, but I don't know what conclusions have been reached.

The story I have heard is that with the introduction of a regulation requiring teachers in certain educational establishments to have a foreign language qualification and with the appearance of exams in Esperanto which have been recognized as meeting some European standard (there's more about this on edukado.net) some wily French would-be teachers have sussed out that it is far easier to get the qualification in Esperanto, and have gone for that.

Indeed. And a corresponding drop in enrollment in other language certification courses. Again speaking from my own experience, university-level professors of modern and classical languages are already living on the edge in the US, and they are
horrified by the very idea of Esperanto.

Todd

I lost all respect for Chomsky after seeing his comments on Esperanto and then going on to read his writings on the nature of scientific discovery. The man is overrated.

T0dd:

Sudanglo:The Australian initiative seems to be aimed at primary schools, maybe sensibly, since university academics might be less concerned with what goes on at this level.

That may be so, and I hope it is. I'm still inclined to think that the bureaucrats will consult the profs about any such program.

Looking at that list of schools on the Mondeto website, and the testomonies, it seems as if the Mondeto project has managed to introduce Esperanto to a decent niche in Australian education. Rest assured, that any talk of national curriculum involving Esperanto would shoot the whole thing down very quickly, especially in these days where no matter who's in government, they aren't too liked.

The good thing about the schools that the mondeto project seems to be trialed/introduced into is that some of them, like Montessori, often have mostly positive reputations, or are regarded as having a good quality of education (of course, they aren't so highly regarded that everyone wants to go there, otherwise they'd be superschools or something rather!). This could see Esperanto work its way into a sort of alternative education niche, schools of which aren't really seen in a negative light at all (although some thickheaded stultuloj do exist who deride anything not what they consider normal, but luckily their opinion is not worth much). From there, it might work its way into private or prestigious schools, since they have a reputation of encouraging cutting edge new education techniques and employing them.

This better opens the pathway to the mid-range private schools, however they will likely be more resistant simply due to budget or tradition excuses (tradition is sometimes used to prop up lesser reputations, and budget isn't always a true excuse, but you can't blame them necessarily if they're not interested). Low price range private schools I guess would be more likely to accept the idea of esperanto than mid-range because they need a way to cut across the pack, and they often don't have the "tradition" excuse, and often have to be more honest with the budget, and EO would probably be cheaper!

Public schools are a messier situation then.

Also, this does not take into account any government decisions to give/increase bonuses to schools teaching regional languages like Indonesian, Japanese and Chinese, although I found out that my old high school has just cut its indonesian program and now only teachers German (lutheran school), so it's not too bigger worry. But still, it's a very very uncertain future for EO in education here. Mondeto have "la espero" though

RE Chomsky, I haven't lost respect for him, since he does say some good things, but then again I've never respected him more than a random stranger I walk past in the mall, so meh!

Genjix:I lost all respect for Chomsky after seeing his comments on Esperanto and then going on to read his writings on the nature of scientific discovery. The man is overrated.

He busted B.F. Skinner, and for that he deserves lasting recognition. He was a complete game-changer in the field of linguistics, and there aren't many of whom that can be said.

But when it comes to Esperanto, someone just needs to slap him.

Todd

SPANISH: Pero sinceramente, Todd, ¿qué otra cosa podías esperar de un idioma donde "todo junto" se escribe separado y "separado" se escribe todo junto?

ENGLISH: But sincerely, Todd, what other thing could you expect of a language were "todo junto" (altogether) is written "separado" (apart) and "separado" is written "todo junto"?

(Sorry, the pun is lost in English)

Regards,

Daniel

T0dd:
I became impatient and annoyed at what I perceived as the "defects" of Spanish. Esperanto taught me to see "defects" rather than just rules and exceptions. For example, when you use a transitive verb in Spanish, if its object is a person, you must also use the preposition 'a'; otherwise not. Insanity!

danielcg:SPANISH: Pero sinceramente, Todd, ¿qué otra cosa podías esperar de un idioma donde "todo junto" se escribe separado y "separado" se escribe todo junto?

ENGLISH: But sincerely, Todd, what other thing could you expect of a language were "todo junto" (altogether) is written "separado" (apart) and "separado" is written "todo junto"?

I guess it's no worse than the way, in English, we chop a tree down and then chop it up!

Todd

In any case, in my opinion it would be nearly impossible to get Esperanto into the public school system in the US. Possibly into some private schools, but public? I doubt it.

The US, unfortunately, seems to have a strong contingent of paranoid conspiracy-oriented mouthbreathers who most likely would see Esperanto as something "communist" (or "socialist", or "fascist" - take your pick, as they don't actually appear to know what these words mean, and tend to use them interchangeably). These people are stupid, but they are also, unfortunately, very loud and overly aggressive. And there are more of them than seems reasonable in a modern technological nation.

We have enough trouble keeping evolution and the big bang theory taught in the schools. Esperanto doesn't stand a chance here (and the connection George Soros - the baby-eating demon of progressivism - has with Esperanto would NOT help matters any amongst this crowd).

Inroads might be made in the more urban areas in the northeast and along the west coast (although even that is dubious), but probably nowhere else. Count the heartland completely out.

No, the only chance Esperanto has on any kind of large scale within the realm of public education lies well outside of the US.

Thank you, Todd, for creating a separate thread on this topic.

I certainly do think it is time that the Esperanto movement started to reflect on the optimum stategy for substantially increasing the number of speakers - without which the next 100 years might well be at the the pace of out first 100 years.

Even given certain difficulties in some countries, it seems to me that arguing for Esperanto on an educational basis stands a much greater chance than arguing for it as the world's, or Europe's, lingua franca.

The beauty of this position is that all the well worn arguments against Esperanto immediately cease to have any force.

1, Nobody speaks it - but nobody spoke Latin at a time when it was taught in UK schools for the discipline of mind it imposed.

2. It isn't a real language - never mind, it has language-like characteristics and a simplicity which permit easing the pupil into foreign language learning.

3. It has no culture - never mind, there is enough translated literature (prose and poems), and direct contact possibilities with other countries, to introduce the pupil to the idea of other cultures, and to see the relationship between language and the expression of ideas.

4. Everybody speaks English, we don't need another international language - of course, but many pupils will not have the time or the abilities to learn English to a useful standard. Shouldn't we also give those pupils the perspective that comes from trying to express themselves differently.

5. If you are a native speaker of English you don't need to learn another language. No you don't, but learning Esperanto brings insight into how your own language works - isn't that a worthwhile aim in the schools - and it does it without the tedium of the rote-learning of complex grammatical irregularity.

If I may add some additional reasonings:

1, Nobody speaks it - some would argue otherwise, but even then, if there's no one to speak it then you don't have to worry about conformity, giving you more time to do a better job at learning and reproducing the language than worrying if the people you'll be speaking to in the future are racist or make jokes about foreigners behind their backs.

2. It isn't a real language - we shall then expect a description of a real language, right here on the spot. Otherwise, there's the whole "nothing is real, all is an illusion" tactic. Who cares anyway, it'll open your kid's mind and help them learn to find beautiful things where others believe there's nothing/

3. It has no culture - precisely - if your kid gets used to the idea of there being no culture, then they'll learn to appreciate any culture. After all, no culture is the most different culture to anyone's culture (could work as a reply to the not-a-language argument too).

4. Everybody speaks English, we don't need another international language - even better, everyone understands scowls and smiles and grunts and various hand movements. We'll rid ourselves of English while we're at it then.

5. If you are a native speaker of English you don't need to learn another language - if you're a PE teacher then you don't need high school maths, if you're a librarian you don't need to know chemistry or physics, and if you're an astronaut you don't need to know snowboarding. However, until the day children know exactly what they want to be the moment they're born, we'll keep introducing them to new topics in the hope they find their calling - who knows, your child could be the William shakespeare of the future, inspired by their love for linguistics which originated all with an Esperanto lesson.

RiotNrrd:

No, the only chance Esperanto has on any kind of large scale within the realm of public education lies well outside of the US.

I've long said that Esperanto in the public school will come through clubs/student orgs rather than official courses.