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Sia confusion

от richardhall, 18 май 2007

Съобщения: 11

Език: English

richardhall (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 09:33:03

Is "Li trinkis sian bieron" identical in meaning to "Li trinkis lian bieron"? If so - and I think it is - which is considered to be the better Esperanto?

mnlg (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 09:57:21

richardhall:Is "Li trinkis sian bieron" identical in meaning to "Li trinkis lian bieron"?
No. "sia" relates to the subject. "lia" to someone else. Whose beer is it?

Petro salutas Karlon kaj kisas sian edzinon.
Peter greets Carl and kisses his [Peter's] wife.

Petro salutas Karlon kaj kisas lian edzinon.
Peter greets Carl and kisses his [Carl's] wife.

[Karlo koleriĝas].

richardhall (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 18:59:47

That makes sense. Thank you. I can see that will remove many of the ambiguities that English makes possible. So is it wrong to say "Karlo trinkis lian bieron" (assuming that we're talking about the beer that belongs to Karlo), or is it simply less polished?

Andybolg (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 19:30:41

It is wrong okulumo.gif

erinja (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 19:46:00

More precisely, it is correct grammar but it doesn't say what you mean it to say. "Karlo trinkas lian bieron" means that Carl is drinking some other man's beer. It never means that Carl is drinking his own beer (that would absolutely always be "sian bieron")

If these uses of 'sia' are confusing to you, you can sometimes leave them out and use 'la' instead; the "sia" meaning can sometimes be understood from the context. So you could say, for example "Karlo trinkas la bieron" (and it is sort of understood that we are talking about drinking his own beer)

mnlg (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 21:25:45

richardhall:That makes sense. Thank you. I can see that will remove many of the ambiguities that English makes possible.
English does fine by adding "own". "sia" basically means "his own", "its own", "her own". "siaj" is "their own".
So is it wrong to say "Karlo trinkis lian bieron" (assuming that we're talking about the beer that belongs to Karlo), or is it simply less polished?
If that's Carl's beer, then that sentence does not convey the correct meaning. It is wrong semantically.

richardhall (Покажи профила) 18 май 2007, 21:35:43

Thanks for the responses - I reckon I've 'got it' now.

Islander (Покажи профила) 26 май 2007, 13:39:46

Bottom line, however, is that no man would dare drink another one's beer! rido.gif

DesertNaiad (Покажи профила) 26 май 2007, 20:47:00

Though that kissing of wives... lol

awake (Покажи профила) 29 май 2007, 05:18:38

mnlg:
English does fine by adding "own". "sia" basically means "his own", "its own", "her own". "siaj" is "their own".
Just one point of clarification here. siaj can be "their own" but it can be "his own" or "her own" as well. It's not plural because it refers to a group (ili/they); it would be plural because it must agree with what it modifies.

Li perdis siajn librojn. = He lost his books. Here sia takes the j ending because it modifies a plural noun and it takes the n ending because it modifies something in the accusative case.

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