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Sia confusion

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Ubutumwa 11

ururimi: English

richardhall (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 09:33:03

Is "Li trinkis sian bieron" identical in meaning to "Li trinkis lian bieron"? If so - and I think it is - which is considered to be the better Esperanto?

mnlg (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 09:57:21

richardhall:Is "Li trinkis sian bieron" identical in meaning to "Li trinkis lian bieron"?
No. "sia" relates to the subject. "lia" to someone else. Whose beer is it?

Petro salutas Karlon kaj kisas sian edzinon.
Peter greets Carl and kisses his [Peter's] wife.

Petro salutas Karlon kaj kisas lian edzinon.
Peter greets Carl and kisses his [Carl's] wife.

[Karlo koleriĝas].

richardhall (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 18:59:47

That makes sense. Thank you. I can see that will remove many of the ambiguities that English makes possible. So is it wrong to say "Karlo trinkis lian bieron" (assuming that we're talking about the beer that belongs to Karlo), or is it simply less polished?

Andybolg (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 19:30:41

It is wrong okulumo.gif

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 19:46:00

More precisely, it is correct grammar but it doesn't say what you mean it to say. "Karlo trinkas lian bieron" means that Carl is drinking some other man's beer. It never means that Carl is drinking his own beer (that would absolutely always be "sian bieron")

If these uses of 'sia' are confusing to you, you can sometimes leave them out and use 'la' instead; the "sia" meaning can sometimes be understood from the context. So you could say, for example "Karlo trinkas la bieron" (and it is sort of understood that we are talking about drinking his own beer)

mnlg (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 21:25:45

richardhall:That makes sense. Thank you. I can see that will remove many of the ambiguities that English makes possible.
English does fine by adding "own". "sia" basically means "his own", "its own", "her own". "siaj" is "their own".
So is it wrong to say "Karlo trinkis lian bieron" (assuming that we're talking about the beer that belongs to Karlo), or is it simply less polished?
If that's Carl's beer, then that sentence does not convey the correct meaning. It is wrong semantically.

richardhall (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Rusama 2007 21:35:43

Thanks for the responses - I reckon I've 'got it' now.

Islander (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 26 Rusama 2007 13:39:46

Bottom line, however, is that no man would dare drink another one's beer! rido.gif

DesertNaiad (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 26 Rusama 2007 20:47:00

Though that kissing of wives... lol

awake (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Rusama 2007 05:18:38

mnlg:
English does fine by adding "own". "sia" basically means "his own", "its own", "her own". "siaj" is "their own".
Just one point of clarification here. siaj can be "their own" but it can be "his own" or "her own" as well. It's not plural because it refers to a group (ili/they); it would be plural because it must agree with what it modifies.

Li perdis siajn librojn. = He lost his books. Here sia takes the j ending because it modifies a plural noun and it takes the n ending because it modifies something in the accusative case.

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