sudanglo:It's just some sort of Sudoko, for the worst kind of romance language linguist.

Sudoku's the work of the devil?! I knew something was suss (suspect) about it!

sudanglo:I have to disagree Ed.

I do think that Esperanto propaganda concentrates far to much on 'la facileco' of Esperanto without saying enough about the indequacies of English (or any other national language) to be the international language.

Esperanto is for two kinds of people:

a) People who have already learned or tried to learn other languages, or people who want to learn about more cultures than they can feasibly learn the languages of. These people already know how difficult it is to learn a language, and are in no need of tendentious, simplistic propagandist assertions to try and convince them of how pointless it is to do what they are doing or have done.

b) People who haven't, perhaps children, or victims of the UK's official inward looking attitude to foreign-language learning. These people can be helped to learn other languages by learning Esperanto first.

Learning Esperanto doesn't happen by magic. some effort is required.

sudanglo:Esperanto is different - not just another language. It's purpose-built for its role.

Rather than sweeping Esperanto's 'artificiality' under the carpet we should emphasize it as a plus feature.

Nobody trusts an aeroplane that has never been tested, and for good reason. It probably won't fly. Languages don't work straight out of the box either. Esperanto needed a generation of use in all contexts to make it a fully mature and capable language and deal with issues that nobody could have foreseen, especially a 19th century non-linguist, living before linguistics was a proper science (at least in Europe). This is par for the course and the same thing is required for pidgin contact vernaculars before they turn into proper capable creole languages.

sudanglo:As regards who should learn Esperanto - the answer surely is that it is for everybody who might find it useful - not just the preserve of liberal lefties.

So those whose political or societal views might not be harmonious with those you hold should also be welcome. That is real tolerance.

Esperanto may be useful for people traffickers, drug smugglers, international terrorists, etc, but I sure as hell don't intend telling them that or helping them use it.

I am a pretty mild-mannered guy, and although I have my own definite views on a whole number of issues, I find that I get on with most people of most persuasions. I do insist on making a couple of exceptions, though. I don't do ethnic hatred or racism, and people like that logically have no need of what we are about, and have no place in our ranks.

EdRobertson:
I don't do ethnic hatred or racism, and people like that logically have no need of what we are about, and have no place in our ranks.

Isn't one of the major points of Esperanto completely the opposite? Isn't it hoped that through learning Esperanto and therefore enabling themselves to understand others, people who have felt hatred for whole other races will instead be able to empathise with them?

So people like that in fact logically have every need of what we're on about?

EldanarLambetur:Isn't it hoped that through learning Esperanto and therefore enabling themselves to understand others, people who have felt hatred for whole other races will instead be able to empathise with them?

So people like that in fact logically have every need of what we're on about?

That's all very well, but it's a bit like inviting a tiger to tea and hoping he won't eat YOU because of your good example. It might work out in the children's book of the same name, but it doesn't work in reality.

Have a look at this shameful chapter in the history of Esperanto in Germany.

If somebody, for instance, likes David Cameron or Nick Clegg, that just makes them an idiot. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter a whole lot what they think. Racism, on the other hand, can quite literally be a matter of life and death for somebody.

EdRobertson:If somebody .. likes David Cameron or Nick Clegg, that just makes them an idiot.

They seem all right to me as human beings, even if I don't agree with all their policies.

If somebody likes Alex Salmond, that doesn't make them an idiot, though they might be a Scottish nationalist.

ceigered:
Also, according to social darwinism, Esperanto could be a bit negative due to its ease, since it doesn't promote an environment where effort and mental ability is required as much as some might argue natural languages have (I'd debate that too, since I'm not a social darwinist).

False dichotomy (even if only implied)....it's not that Esperanto doesn't require effort and mental ability; it does, just not in the basic mechanics of the language. If you can memorize five endings and when they're used, you've mastered in a few minutes what takes months or even years to master in a national language (the verbal system) like Spanish or Russian. The effort and mental ability comes in later: word building and the nuancing that you can come up with thru word building.

ceigered:
Also, according to social darwinism, Esperanto could be a bit negative due to its ease, since it doesn't promote an environment where effort and mental ability is required as much as some might argue natural languages have (I'd debate that too, since I'm not a social darwinist).

Quite an amusing statement given that some people can faff about for years trying to learn Esperanto, but without making much progress at all.

Chainy:faff

That's the highlight of the thread for me. A new verb for my dictionary. Thanks

mnlg:

Chainy:faff

That's the highlight of the thread for me. A new verb for my dictionary. Thanks

I can't think of usage where it isn't followed by about or around. You might want to include them in brackets after the verb itself.

orthohawk:

ceigered:
Also, according to social darwinism, Esperanto could be a bit negative due to its ease, since it doesn't promote an environment where effort and mental ability is required as much as some might argue natural languages have (I'd debate that too, since I'm not a social darwinist).

False dichotomy (even if only implied)....it's not that Esperanto doesn't require effort and mental ability; it does, just not in the basic mechanics of the language.

Chainy:Quite an amusing statement given that some people can faff about for years trying to learn Esperanto, but without making much progress at all.

That's not going to stop people who don't know Esperanto question the language's simplicity. If we call it simple, then are we in fact lying?

Can we then rule out simplicity of the language? Should we rule it out? Do we want people to think simplicity is good? (I mean, theoretically with the right advertising, we can make even traditional negatives look like positives).

Man alive, just now I'm thinking bout all the different view points and ismoj within the Esperanto community... It's gonna be hard to appease everyone...

---

Anyway, allow me to summarise what I feel are some points people don't seem to mind:

[LISTO]
Esperanto has a foundation on pragmatic regularity.
Esperanto uses a root system to build new words, similar to Latin, while still having some synonyms and loan words to deal with an ever changing linguistic environment.
Esperanto proves that languages constructed for a task can work in lieu of traditional or native languages. It has an interesting 100+ year history.
Esperanto may not use a vocabulary that has an equal amount of words from every language, but it has a vocabulary that is similar to that most common in the world, regardless of its European origins.
Esperanto can be used as "first second-language", to help people learn how other languages and grammar work, before using that to learn other less regular languages.
Esperanto has proven that constructed languages can coexist in the competitive realm of national languages, and that in conjunction with peoples' existing knowledge of languages, can be used to communicate in a fun yet effective manner with those across the globe (and maybe one day past that!), without disallowing people the use of whatever languages they want to use, be they national or constructed languages.[/list]This way, no language/group are having mud slung at them, things are very matter-of-fact, we're not using hyperboles (minus maybe the "to infinity and beyond!"-esque part). I feel that makes Esperanto look like a cooperative, teamplaying friendly guy who's fun to be around, rather than the conqueror or anything like that (let's face it, if Esperanto's gonna go Genghis Khan style on the language world, he's gonna have to be reequipped. Easier for him to be the jesuit missionary rather than the conquistador laŭ mi).

Perhaps, depending on the context/target audience, that can be rewritten with more friendly vocab that still keeps the meaning.

Alas, the general theme is similar to the basic propaganda lines.