Ferdinand Cesarano:There is no doubt that the Civito take themselves seriously; and good for them. I applaud Esperantists who respect themselves.

I think I'm desagree with your whole message. This last point is not understandable. It's like you're suggesting there are esperanto speakers that not respect themselves.

Ferdinand Cesarano:Ju pli da Civitanismo, des pli fortas la Esperantistaro.

Just the opposite. In first place because the raumist position hasn't interest in promoting esperanto. So, the number of esperanto speakers would decrease after not many years.

In second place because that organization is simply ridiculous (they seem want to be apart of the rest of the world... just the opposite idea of the origin of the language) and with reformists and extremists can give a very, very bad public image to the language (what for me is the important thing).

There are accusations about trying to introduce civitans in UEA to control it and thus control the "entire" movement. Is something worrying. Esperanto is not THEIR language, is a language they use, which is everyone's. And is no needed a esperantist people to live the language but just people who want to understand each other with it.

I'm not a finvenkist and I'm not against raumism; but a bad idea is just a bad idea. Even if it has defenders. And it's worse if it is not well run.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:Just the opposite. In first place because the raumist position hasn't interest in promoting esperanto. So, the number of esperanto speakers would decrease after not many years.

I believe Raumists are interested in the development of the language and its culture, not the imposition of it, so they're still open to promoting it to get speakers, but not to push for a fina-venko outcome.

After all, it goes against raumist principle to let the language die out due to lack of speakers, since that doesn't develop the language community at all.

So, a finvenkist might go "Hey, learn this language, it's really international and it'd be great to have as the world language", while a raumist would probably say "hey, you should look at this language, it's pretty cool. Interesting history, etc."

That's my understanding at least. There seems to be no true stereotype of either, apart from their focuses.

ceigered:So, a finvenkist might go "Hey, learn this language, it's really international and it'd be great to have as the world language", while a raumist would probably say "hey, you should look at this language, it's pretty cool. Interesting history, etc."

I'm not the only one that think that UEA is acting in a raumist way since many years ago even if its existence is based in finvenkism.

Perhaps you are right. At the end is possible that both are kind of contradictory. Civito seems to be able to do anything to impose itself and UEA seems to want to look like inoffensive even if that means to look like inexistent.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:
I'm not the only one that think that UEA is acting in a raumist way since many years ago even if its existence is based in finvenkism.

Where can I find a list of UEA's raumist activities? In my opionion UEA should use member fees at same promotion activities like other language culture institutes do i.e. Instituto Cervantes (Spanish); Goethe-Institut (German); British Council and America House (English). Instead of, they seem to dump valuable member fee funds for financing huge congresses which are mostly closed to public and are safe for non-critic self-praising, too. I see that sticking to current state (no evolution) simply high boring. And finding boring surrounding will never attract creative folks, which are free of lots of phantasy to suggest ways how to make something high attractive. Otherwise once Esperanto will appear at UNESCO Atlas of the World's Languages in Danger. The matter is at what state Esperanto community wanna be see Esperanto at that atlas in the near future?
_
[LISTO]
vulnerable
definitely endangered
severely endangered
critically endangered
extinct(?!)
revitalized[/list]

qwertz:Where can I find a list of UEA's raumist activities? ... they seem to dump valuable member fee funds for financing huge congresses which are mostly closed to public and are safe for non-critic self-praising, too.

I'm not sure about what you mean. Are you agree or not about the UEA is acting in a raumistic way?

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:

qwertz:Where can I find a list of UEA's raumist activities? ... they seem to dump valuable member fee funds for financing huge congresses which are mostly closed to public and are safe for non-critic self-praising, too.

I'm not sure about what you mean. Are you agree or not about the UEA is acting in a raumistic way?

To be fair. Watching that bunches of last UK videos I agree that UEA doing some raumist activities. But they seem to be still stuck to (in my opinion) boring self-praising traditions. I don't know how they name that special event topic. Maybe "greetings from the whole world thanks to existence of Esperanto"(?). I'm sure I would gliding asleep under the fronts neighbour chair. Okay, I could read a book like some other folks are doing. But I could do that at home, too. Doesn't need that lot of financial efforts to go to such boring event. I see that whole congress-idea (=sitting at hundreds of chair rows in front of an heightened stage and listening to wise talking) is very old-fashion and boring non-attractive. Even if I dislike the lyrics line which contains masked f## word, vesperiĝas-song of Eterne rima tre bone conveys that basic idea of boringness of UK.

Regarding Civito:
Sorry, I simply see it like an Internet joke. I know another interculture project (Słubfurt; Visiting Słubfurt ), who also tries (btw. sucessfully) to prepare hypothetic facts creativly into April joke reality, means it could be possible in reality but it isn't right now. Of course, that can push a concept idea into reality. But doing that April joke concept needs very, very good knowledge of local "reality". And, for me the whole Civitio idea looks something similar like some - sorry - nutty - world domination idea. The whole world overstretched by an Esperanto government? Pfff, forget it. They should try to step down to experience what respect to other ideas means.

novatago:

ceigered:So, a finvenkist might go "Hey, learn this language, it's really international and it'd be great to have as the world language", while a raumist would probably say "hey, you should look at this language, it's pretty cool. Interesting history, etc."

I'm not the only one that think that UEA is acting in a raumist way since many years ago even if its existence is based in finvenkism.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to disagree with you on that point. From what I've seen they do seem to be raumist, but in a patriotic sense (can that even work?). For me, that's not so bad, but as Ferdinand alluded to it feels like Esperanto's community needs some political "bite"/power, and finvenkism does seem to bring out that strength, if moderated

Civito seems to be able to do anything to impose itself and UEA seems to want to look like inoffensive even if that means to look like inexistent.

Maybe they could learn from each other - one group seems to have some ambition, where as the other group seem to be more heavily grounded in reality...

qwertz:But they seem to be still stuck to (in my opinion) boring self-praising traditions.

For me that is raumism.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:

qwertz:But they seem to be still stuck to (in my opinion) boring self-praising traditions.

For me that is raumism.

For me that is not raumism. An Esperanto komunumo (=raumism) doesn't need praise itself. They simply use parts of cultural Esperanto heritage i.e. books, music, theatre for the sake of simply using/consuming that Esperanto heritage by itself. Often that consuming of cultural Esperanto heritage motivates to add or evaluate Esperanto culture. I see an Esperanto komunumo an fertile ground for creative evolution of Esperanto. Okay, being part of an restrictive movement can enforce creation of useful tools i.e. dictionaries, too. But one very significant difference between Movado and Komunumo seems to be that people can join and disjoint Esperanto komunumo as often the want without any restrictions. I'm in doubt, if any movement will be capable to accept that "creative community hopping" because that movado folks want to have the full control. Thats also why I see Civito not like they follow any of the raumismo "principles".

Jouko Lindstedt: (BJA) RAUMO Enkonduke - Fri, 02 Jun 2000

qwertz:For me that is not raumism. An Esperanto komunumo (=raumism) doesn't need praise itself. They simply use parts of cultural Esperanto heritage i.e. books, music, theatre for the sake of simply using/consuming that Esperanto heritage by itself. Often that consuming of cultural Esperanto heritage motivates to add or evaluate Esperanto culture.

The fact is one can not say what is part of a culture and what is not, based on own likes and dislikes. The boring part of a congress is part of the historical tradition linked to the language, so it's part of the culture. In the other hand your view of raumism can be also selfpraise.

Ĝis, Novatago.