novatago:

qwertz:For me that is not raumism. An Esperanto komunumo (=raumism) doesn't need praise itself. They simply use parts of cultural Esperanto heritage i.e. books, music, theatre for the sake of simply using/consuming that Esperanto heritage by itself. Often that consuming of cultural Esperanto heritage motivates to add or evaluate Esperanto culture.

The fact is one can not say what is part of a culture and what is not, based on own likes and dislikes. The boring part of a congress is part of the historical tradition linked to the language, so it's part of the culture.

Okay, I didn't clarify the word concept. "creative cultural art" should filter out movement restrictions. Talking about culture, I tried to point to "creative cultural art".

novatago:
In the other hand your view of raumism can be also selfpraise.

I don't understand, what you try to point to. There is a difference between self praising and making space for breathing. I would go that far that one of raumism "principle" could be the ban of selfpraising. I see raumismo like taking care of an kind of creative playground (=creative culture art) to consume, develop/evaluate Esperanto heritage. Creativity needs space and not limitations.

qwertz:

novatago:
In the other hand your view of raumism can be also selfpraise.

I don't understand, what you try to point to. ...
Creativity needs space and not limitations.

Well, I just try to point that for me there is not a big diference between to be in a meeting to say "how cool we are because we speak Esperanto" and to say "how cool we are because we sing/write/paint/read/dance in Esperanto" even is this last is not said out loud before a microphone. Artists are not known for being humble. There isn't also guarantees of having fun.

Anyway, both kind of meetings are trying to live esperantism by a their own way instead of promoting the language outside the esperantism. I'm not against this but the thing is that UEA should be promoting (not imposing) actively the language and itself outside esperantism (of course, in an attractive way), not only before high institutions but before whole world people to have, what you call, space and not limitations.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:
Well, I just try to point that for me there is not a big diference between to be in a meeting to say "how cool we are because we speak Esperanto" and to say "how cool we are because we sing/write/paint/read/dance in Esperanto" even is this last is not said out loud before a microphone. Artists are not known for being humble. There isn't also guarantees of having fun.

At Esperanto congresses I miss the strong focus at "having active fun" -aspect i.e. (dancing and singing together with others). Thats why I will make a big curve around congress meetings. I also don't feel cool to sing/write/paint/read/dance in Esperanto. Thats some weired kind of criticism. I don't feel any internal need to be "cool" or to be "proud at bla, bla, bla" etc. Its simply about celebrating groove/Lebensfreude/ joie de vivre. What should be wrong about that simple wish? Much better if I could relate that to Esperanto (community).

novatago:
Anyway, both kind of meetings are trying to live esperantism by a their own way instead of promoting the language outside the esperantism. I'm not against this but the thing is that UEA should be promoting (not imposing) actively the language and itself outside esperantism (of course, in an attractive way), not only before high institutions but before whole world people to have, what you call, space and not limitations.

Its kind of their nature, that creative communities mix each other. So I don't see that "closed esperanto circle"- issue for a creative Esperanto community. Regarding Esperanto movement: They even seem not to be capable to build up strong joint ventures with other movements.

qwertz:Its simply about celebrating groove/Lebensfreude/ joie de vivre. What should be wrong about that simple wish? Much better if I could relate that to Esperanto (community).

I'm totally ok with that wish and I see that totally compatible with all kind of congress/meeting: with a movement related program, with a culture program, with a "this is just an excuse to meet" program and with meetings without programed activities.

From the begining there is something about your point I don't understand and I feel the problem is my english skills. So I don't know if makes sense to try go on with this.

qwertz:I don't see that "closed esperanto circle"

I see it but I admit I can be wrong and even If I'm not, of course not always have to be that way.

qwertz:Regarding Esperanto movement: They even seem not to be capable to build up strong joint ventures with other movements.

I ask my self if UEA has tried something in that way in the last thirty years. It would be the key to re-release the language.

I don't want to seem too much critic with the movement. Some people have done very good things (lernu!, wikipedia, translation of google interface and other web sites) and I don't find useless the congresses.

Ĝis, Novatago.

novatago:I don't want to seem too much critic with the movement. Some people have done very good things (lernu!, wikipedia, translation of google interface and other web sites) and I don't find useless the congresses.

Ĝis, Novatago.

Ne zorgu I think many people are appreciative for the Esperanto's community's endeavours, and a lot of our critiques are more intended to be constructive criticism instead of insults.

After all, we live in a world where much is seemingly unchangeable or can't be helped, or something that had more potential didn't work out. So I think it's a more familial, hopeful criticism than something bad.

novatago:
From the begining there is something about your point I don't understand and I feel the problem is my english skills. So I don't know if makes sense to try go on with this.

Hhm. Maybe that could be a reason: I feel a deep distrust of any movement. But maybe the concept behind the English term "movement" and the German "Bewegung" are different. The German term "Bewegung" triggers a very big antipathy to me because I grow up in a society which tries to control everthing of their citiziens daily life. Same like most or maybe every movement tries to realize. So, I'm a little bit over-sensitive/allergic against any (political motivated) peer pressure and justification constraint attacks. Thats based on personal experiences. And in my opinion its not possible to explain somebody that experiences until full understanding. It seem to be possible to guide somebody to similar experiences. But one person will never understand completly others experiences. I belief that everybodies human experiences are unique and not transferable. Maybe because of that everything I wrote shows a hidden distrust prejudice against movement-initatives.

erinja:..Esperanta Respubliko.. way of mocking the complicated governmental structure of the Civito.

Good one! I wouldn't approve of pictures of nuns handling guns, though. They should get secular people to do it for them, so as to remain unsullied by such deadly devices.

erinja:.. one of the sub-organizations of the Civito declared the editor of Libera Folio to be "Persona non grata" in the Civito, and even sent him a certificate to prove it!

Perhaps he should have replied, 'Ĉu vere?, Nu, mi preferus, ke vi uzu la tiparon "Times New Roman", nekursivan'.

(Trans: 'Really? Well, I would rather you used the font Times New Roman, not slanting.')

Ferdinand Cesarano:I suppose I am. Esperantists who deny that we are a people, an existing language minority, are exhibiting a behaviour that is self-abnegating. I call this a lack of self-respect.

I think it is very dangerous to see ourselves in that way, as national groups. We are not a nation, and shouldn't seek to be one.

We're nothing like the Kurds or the Basques.

Our goal should be cosmopolitanism. That is precisely the innovation Esperanto brings to the world. The focus is then shifted from nationals to Human beings.

Raŭmismo sounds a lot like nationalism or even Zionism in a way, which is a very dangerous game to be played.

We should strive for universalization, not enclosure and conformity.

The Civito makes us look like a cult, rather than a group of people who happen to speak a certain language.

A cult or some sort of fantasy micronation. Either way, it is asking not to take Esperanto seriously.