Vestitor:

bpbatch:

LOL! Nice try--lie, tired blah blah blah

Why are you here then? Just for the troll satisfaction?

Did you read my original post? Or are you replying to justify your inner troll?

erinja:

bpbatch:Snobby, demeaning posts like this is, truly, another reason that the Lernu community has done virtually diddly-squat to encourage people to use, resonate with, and collaborate in Esperanto. So what if a komencanto wants to throw an idea out like this? Why can't this community step back and either (1) encourage by saying, OK, neat idea, but it won't garner a lot of support, but at least you're thinking about the language, or (2) just say nothing? One new learner isn't going to create some grand uprising that destroys codified Esperanto rules.

Because a beginner coming to a French website looking for friendly support for their proposed reforms will definitely find that friendly support that they are looking for, right?

A beginner just came away from this thread thinking that saying 'as instead of "estas" is acceptable normative Esperanto because it appeared in someone's poem a hundred years ago. Um chalk that up as a win?

*sigh*

It wasn't my primary goal to "reform" esperanto. You can clearly see in my opening post I was also (and maybe I didn't make it clear enough that it was actually "mainly" ) interested in the question if this was ever used because it looks natural to me. Low and behold, it was used. in a poem. 100 years ago.
I find that interesting. I won't just start using this randomly, but I still like the idea of using it. is that "wrong"?

The problem with Lernu is that, while the die-hard Esperantists that live here understand their language is, at this point, "old" with "established rules," they hide behind the fact that the language was made up from virtually scratch, codified by a non-elected group of people 20 years after its debut, and then virtually exorcised its inventor when even he himself (Zamenhof) suggested and supported changes that led to spin-offs (such as Ido) that these "protectors" now believe were the root cause of Esperanto's modern-day un-popularity and virtual low number of speakers. These relatively few folks have mistakenly believed that they are now the "protectors" of the language and that any new learner that comes along can't argue the rules or syntax, nor have an open mind when it comes to suggesting or debating the ideals of this so-called "universal" and "perfect" international language.

The high-and-mighty attitude and their 1900s thinking is what has kept Esperanto from flourishing, from any new, decent textbook from hitting a major bookstore since the 100th anniversary since Richardson's arguably boring history tome, and prevents any free thinker from engaging in this language.

A lot of speakers who are interested in such conlags such as Esperanto don't jump into it "accidentally." They are interested in an idealistic goal, which was Esperanto, and take the bait and can't help but think, "hey, if this guy can create something with these liberal rules, why can't I expand on it?" Then the hypocrisy of the Esperanto guardians kick in, arguing that the rules are solid and stable and anyone that questions the need for an accusative, the necessity of a feminine gender, the use of "ri," etc., is an idiot and needs to stick their nose back into Richardson's textbook to learn why nothing, EVER, needs to change, because all of the other textbooks said so.

The core group of forum posters and moderators at Lernu in the last several years control this line of thought and are out of touch with the modern day Millenial who is actually interested in the language and go to sites like Duolingo and Facebook (with their modern-day approaches to language learning and collaboration), instead of sitting back and just clumsily and without guidance stumble through the lessons as they are presented here.

Lernu has been struggling for so long, which is evident by the absolute lack of excitement that is generally needed to reform the Esperanto movement. Stuffy, stuffy. Therefore, any komencanto that decides to express any other idea or opinion will be lambasted and shamed either out of these forums or out of learning the language altogether.

I guess some Lernu folks who are jealous of others' lack of innovation and forward-thinking will either brandish me a troll, ignore me, or read between the lines. This just further proves my point.

bpbatch:The problem with Lernu is that, while the die-hard Esperantists that live here understand their language is, at this point, "old" with "established rules," they hide behind the fact that the language was made up from virtually scratch, codified by a non-elected group of people 20 years after its debut, and then virtually exorcised its inventor when even he himself (Zamenhof) suggested and supported changes that led to spin-offs (such as Ido)

Where did THAT come from??? I've extensively read (in Esperanto and in English) on the history of the language. I have never seen any indication of there having been any kind "committee" that worked out the details of the language and then gave ol' Z the boot into the street. Yes, it was "made up virtually from scratch"..........in the 12-15 years prior to its publication in 1887.....by Zamenhof, not some nebulous 20-person committee. Thee needs to read up on the history of the language, specifically the years between 1887 and 1905. Yes, Zamenhof suggested and even may have supported some changes, but he left the final word up to the community of Esperanto speakers that existed at that time and they ALL said, "No, thanks. This works just fine. Leave it alone" so that's what he did.

bpbatch:(snip)...these "protectors" now believe were the root cause of Esperanto's modern-day un-popularity and virtual low number of speakers.

We know exactly why it is unpopular nowadays and it has nothing to do with any of the things you said. WW2 with the persecution of Stalin and Hitler is what is responsible at the root. Add that to the French vetoing the League of Nations resolution to adopt Esperanto (because at the time French was *the* international language and the French din't want to give up that prestige) and you've got what amounted to a "beat down" of the language. In latter days it has been English (as the "killer language" of today) that's done the dirty deed.

bpbatch:These relatively few folks have mistakenly believed that they are now the "protectors" of the language and that any new learner that comes along can't argue the rules or syntax, nor have an open mind when it comes to suggesting or debating the ideals of this so-called "universal" and "perfect" international language.

Thee has obviously glossed over what Erinja has said before: Esperanto is no longer in the "project" stage. It is a full fledged language now and as such must be treated the same way as Spanish, or Russian or any other language. I hate to beat a dead horse, but what exactly does thee think would happen if before thee even got thru the first month of thy study of Spanish, thee went into a forum for students of Spanish and said "hey, all these irregular verbs are a pain in the neck. Let's get rid of 'em. Here's how"? At best they'd all be like, "um, yeah, sure thing " and then proceed to ignore your "suggestions" and MAybE even let you stay in the forum. Why? Because that's not how a language changes. Yeah, it sounds harsh to say, "hey, why don't you try learning the language first to the point where you can discuss IN the language your ideas on how to "improve" it and then you MIGHT be listened to" but that's reality.

bpbatch:...take the bait and can't help but think, "hey, if this guy can create something with these liberal rules, why can't I expand on it?"

But, see, that's just it. They AREN'T just expanding on it; they're trying to CHANGE it. Expanding is adding the word "komputilo" for "computer". Changing is saying "'as = estas". First of all, the Universala Vortaro says "to be" is "esti". Not just "i". Second, rule 16 says what words can experience elision: la and nouns in the singular nominative. No others. That's what the community decided on 110 years ago. This is the Fundamento. The part of the language that is unchangeable. This was voted on by the community of speakers in 1905. They were in essence saying, "if it contradicts the Fundamento, it's not Esperanto any more." I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept.

bpbatch: Then the hypocrisy of the Esperanto guardians kick in, arguing that the rules are solid and stable and anyone that questions the need for an accusative, the necessity of a feminine gender, the use of "ri," etc., is an idiot and needs to stick their nose back into Richardson's textbook to learn why nothing, EVER, needs to change, because all of the other textbooks said so.

what hypocrisy????? there is no hypocrisy here. The esperanto community decided 110 years ago what Esperanto is and would be in the future. It was a fait accompli long before any of us here were even born.

No one is called an "idiot" for questioning the need for the accusative or the use of "ri" (there is no "feminine gender" in esperanto, not like in, e.g. Spanish). All they are told is "learn the language first. THEN if you think it needs improved, suggest your improvements and start using them if you want. But just don't be surprised if no one jumps on board with you."

There need be no changes not because of Mr. Richardson or Erinja or anyone else at Lernu. it's because of the decision of the first Universala Koongreso of Esperanto back in 1905.

bpbatch:Therefore, any komencanto that decides to express any other idea or opinion will be lambasted and shamed either out of these forums or out of learning the language altogether.

Yeah, we get a little testy when someone who barely speaks the language (or worse, doesn't even speak it at all yet) comes in and says what amounts to "you all have been doing this wrong. *I* know better: here's the best way.....". The reason we get testy is that we have heard this a gajillion times already and we know that these "improvements" will in all likelihood never take off and so we want to save the poor noob the waste of time and effort when he could be using all that energy to learning Esperanto, not some dim shadow of Esperanto. We also know that (like I myself experienced with my "-es" ending) that once the noob actually learns the language, he will discover that most, if not all, of his improvements are a waste of time.

bpbatch:
But, see, that's just it. They AREN'T just expanding on it; they're trying to CHANGE it. Expanding is adding the word "komputilo" for "computer". Changing is saying "'as = estas". First of all, the Universala Vortaro says "to be" is "esti". Not just "i". Second, rule 16 says what words can experience elision: la and nouns in the singular nominative. No others. That's what the community decided on 110 years ago. This is the Fundamento. The part of the language that is unchangeable. This was voted on by the community of speakers in 1905. They were in essence saying, "if it contradicts the Fundamento, it's not Esperanto any more." I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept.

Well, for starters, I didn't live in 1905 so I never had the chance to vote on this.
I repeat, it was never my intention to change this right away. I was just wondering if it was already proposed somewhere and if yes, how it was received.
I still do think it is possible it will be adopted someday (low % chance, but you never know)

But that's not the point. Even french, dutch and other established languages do change. It's a slow process, but the rules do change sometimes.

I'm not surprised you are defending the "club voted on this many years ago, so now we can't change it anymore" position, because I noticed you constantly use 'thou' and 'thee'. Who in the world uses this nowadays?
(yes, now it's my time to be offensive, sorry guys, but it's my time to become annoyed)

by the way, "thee" is the objective case of "thou" and you keep using "thee" in places where it should be nominative.

I urge thee that thou shall rehearse thy middle age English grammar again soon.

@dnaleor

I understand that you didn't intend to reform E-o, but you already conceded yourself that the first post looked just like that. Shit happens, let's forget it.

However, I have to draw your attention that E-o doesn't work like all other languages by the fact that it has an unchangable part of the norm. The Fundamento, however, is less rigid and gives more space for evolution, also of rules, than many critics believe.

Yes, you didn't vote on the Bulonja Deklaracio, neither did I. That may seem unfair, but it is the right thing after all. The stabilty of E-o, especially in comparison e.g. to Ido, has been one of its greatest advantages.
It's up to you to propose to an upcomig UK a replacement for the BD and Fundamento. But don't expect someone to follow you.

With regard to the user bpbatch, the total lack of knowledge on the history and essence of E-o (camouflaged by invented facts) lets me conclude that (s)he is a troll.

Kirilo81:@dnaleor

I understand that you didn't intend to reform E-o, but you already conceded yourself that the first post looked just like that. Shit happens, let's forget it.

However, I have to draw your attention that E-o doesn't work like all other languages by the fact that it has an unchangable part of the norm. The Fundamento, however, is less rigid and gives more space for evolution, also of rules, than many critics believe.

Yes, you didn't vote on the Bulonja Deklaracio, neither did I. That may seem unfair, but it is the right thing after all. The stabilty of E-o, especially in comparison e.g. to Ido, has been one of its greatest advantages.
It's up to you to propose to an upcomig UK a replacement for the BD and Fundamento. But don't expect someone to follow you.

With regard to the user bpbatch, the total lack of knowledge on the history and essence of E-o (camouflaged by invented facts) lets me conclude that (s)he is a troll.

I'm certainly not a troll, just want to make that clear.

Well, I think you are wrong here.
French is evolving, as is english (who uses "thou" and "thee" nowadays?).
examples: history of french

All LIVING languages are evolving, so if you want Esperanto to live, let it evolve!
If you want to keep Esperanto as rigid as in 1905, it will be as dead as Latin in 100 years time.

jean-luc:You expressly say in you first post that you're proposing a change (except if the komencinto is someone else, but so who ?)

Well, if it makes you guys happy, I will edit my opening post now, to make it more clear what I meant.
I will keep the original one, so you can't accuse me of hiding something.
Give me a minute