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Transitive and Intransitive verbs and the determination thereof

글쓴이: Frakseno, 2008년 5월 22일

글: 24

언어: English

mnlg (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 26일 오후 3:21:45

Rohan:Can intransitive verbs have passive participles?

E.g.: 'Li mortis hieraux. Do, nun, li estas mortinta'.
This is an active participle.
When, if at all, can we say 'mortita'?
As far as I know, we can't.

Frakseno (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 6:59:01

"No. You have to learn them by heart."

As a beginner, I am left shell-shocked by my first encounter with large-scale linguistic unpredictability in Esperanto.
This is just horrifying. shoko.gif

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 7:53:12

Frakseno: I am left shell-shocked...
This is just horrifying. shoko.gif
Did you memorise the lists I posted here, as I advised you to? If not, why not?

giksero (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 8:50:03

Kiam mi aktive lernis Eo-verbojn, mi lernis ilin pare: komenci ion - komenciĝi, droni - dronigi iun.
Sed fakte tion mi malofte faris. La ĝustan uzon de la plej multaj verboj mi lernis parolante kaj aŭskultante la lingvon. Post iu tempo mi aŭdas kiu formo ĝustas, pli malpli kiel en mia gepatra lingvo aŭ, parte, en la angla.

Do laŭ mi la problemo ekzistas, sed ne estas tiel terure (kiel ankaŭ mi unue timis). Oni preskaŭ ĉiam estas komprenata kiam oni eraras, kaj la problemo solvas sin mem dum uzado.

Matthieu (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 8:54:30

Since this thread is about transitivity, I think I can ask my question here.

Vidi means to see, so vidigi means to make someone see.

So how can I say “I make you see him”? “Mi vidigas vin al li” or “Mi vidigas lin al vi”?

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 10:10:39

Mutusen:how can I say “I make you see him”? “Mi vidigas vin al li” or “Mi vidigas lin al vi”?
I would suggest Mi igas vin vidi al li.

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 10:12:11

giksero:Kiam mi aktive lernis Eo-verbojn...
Please provide an English translation for the beginners!

Frakseno (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 28일 오후 10:40:14

Miland:Did you memorise the lists I posted here, as I advised you to? If not, why not?
Uh...

1. I've had a busy week, not conducive to memorisation of linguistic rules.

2. I was out making sure that I still had a sense of humor.

okulumo.gif

Note to self: don't joke around about E-o being at all irregular.

Edited to add: Sorry that my original post was not clear enough in indicating that I was being facetious. I understand how I could be misunderstood.

mnlg (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 29일 오전 7:16:48

So how can I say “I make you see him”?
I think the clearest translation is Mi igas vin vidi lin.

Mi vidigas lin al vi is also correct.

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 5월 29일 오전 9:44:39

Rather than repeat the accusative, which would create ambiguity, to distinguish direct from indirect objects, al is placed before the indirect object. Thus

Li bruligis al si la manon, he burned his hand.
Ili tranĉis al li la barbon, they cut his beard (the beard for him).
Ŝi preparas al ni bonan manĝon, she is preparing us a good meal.
Ĉu vi faros servon al mi? Will you do me a service?

Hence my avoidance of the double accusative.

Here's a reference to PMEG (section 'nerekta objekto'):
http://www.bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontrilo...

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