In 'Bildoj kaj demandoj', picture 32 is confusing me.

It talks about the -ul- thing. I don't understand.

And the dictionary is of little help. Anyone want to explain it?

SonicChao:In 'Bildoj kaj demandoj', picture 32 is confusing me.

It talks about the -ul- thing. I don't understand.

And the dictionary is of little help. Anyone want to explain it?

I'm not that far along in the same course, but in this forum one of the threads talks about the u ending. Perhaps it's similar?

http://en.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=5...

*looks forward to a more informed answer than my own*

DesertNaiad:

SonicChao:In 'Bildoj kaj demandoj', picture 32 is confusing me.

It talks about the -ul- thing. I don't understand.

And the dictionary is of little help. Anyone want to explain it?

I'm not that far along in the same course, but in this forum one of the threads talks about the u ending. Perhaps it's similar?

http://en.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=5...

*looks forward to a more informed answer than my own*

Thanks for your reply, but that's not what I meant. I already know about the -u ending.

-ul- is an affix. I don't know what it means.

-ul- means guy, or fellow that is what is described by the preceding root. For example:[LISTO]
Riĉulo = Rich man
Komikulo = Funny Guy
Insululo = Islander
...[/list]It can also be used by itself, ulo, to just mean guy, or fellow, or buddy...

Islander:-ul- means guy, or fellow that is what is described by the preceding root. For example:[LISTO]
Riĉulo = Rich man
Komikulo = Funny Guy
Insululo = Islander
...[/list]It can also be used by itself, ulo, to just mean guy, or fellow, or buddy...

Can it be applied to women?

Stultulo = Foolish girl/guy?
Artistulo = Artistic girl/guy?

No. Women must add the -in- affixe. Stultulino, Artistulino, ...

Islander:No. Women must add the -in- affixe. Stultulino, Artistulino, ...

That would be two suffixes, but that looks okay. Now I understand. Thank you.

There no rule for how many affixes may be used. It's normally kept with "reason" but I do wonder if we have a record... I'll go start another thread!

Islander:No. Women must add the -in- affixe. Stultulino, Artistulino, ...

First - "artisto" already refers to a person, so an artist would be an "artisto" or an "artistino". You never really see -ul- together with -ist- for this reason, because they both indicate types of people (with various connotations)

But the real reason for my message is that it isn't quite accurate to say that (in modern Esperanto) the -in- ending is absolutely necessary for women. That was true in classical Esperanto, but things have evolved somewhat. In modern Esperanto, it is considered quite normal to have "stultulo" (and any other words -ul- words, and words referring to people in general) refer to both men and women.

It often depends on the language origin of the speaker though. Speakers of highly gendered languages like French, Italian, and German tend to add the -in- when talking about a female. Speakers of languages like English are unlikely to use it. Certainly there are Italian speakers who rarely use -in- for females, and English speakers who always use it, but this is the general pattern I have noticed.

In modern grammar, either form is usually considered correct.

In general, in modern Esperanto, the only words that absolutely 100% refer to males only are gender-specific words like father, uncle, brother, etc. There are movements to change this (you can see an intense debate about it in an older thread on this forum) but most people seem to agree that to get rid of the last vestiges of sexism in Esperanto would require a major overhaul, and is probably not worth it.

What I normally tell my Ana Pana students is that they can choose to use the -in- for all females (instruisto = male teacher, instruistino = female teacher), or not to use it except for emphasis (instruisto = any teacher, instruistino = a teacher who you want to specifically emphasize is female, virinstruisto = a teacher who you want to emphasize is male). What I think is important for Esperanto students is to be aware of the issues and aware of the varying usages, so that no matter which form they personally prefer and use, they will understand everyone else's speech.

I think this is a great example of the evolution of esperanto. In the original usage, the -in suffix was used simply to denote the female gender. In modern usage, it tends to be used more to emphasize it. While the evolution isnt complete yet, it definitely seems to be going in that direction.

Also, just for completeness, sometimes it is useful to specifically mark the male gender. This is typically done with the vir- root word used as a prefix.

Teri estas virinstruisto. = Terry is a male teacher

Ĝis!

erinja:
In general, in modern Esperanto, the only words that absolutely 100% refer to males only are gender-specific words like father, uncle, brother, etc. There are movements to change this (you can see an intense debate about it in an older thread on this forum) but most people seem to agree that to get rid of the last vestiges of sexism in Esperanto would require a major overhaul, and is probably not worth it.

What I normally tell my Ana Pana students is that they can choose to use the -in- for all females (instruisto = male teacher, instruistino = female teacher), or not to use it except for emphasis (instruisto = any teacher, instruistino = a teacher who you want to specifically emphasize is female, virinstruisto = a teacher who you want to emphasize is male). What I think is important for Esperanto students is to be aware of the issues and aware of the varying usages, so that no matter which form they personally prefer and use, they will understand everyone else's speech.