@Miland: sorry for my confusing hint.

erinja:
The sound is a little similar but the ch in Ich is a little closer to "sh" (but with your tongue in an unusual position), and the ll is a little closer to "hl". The tongue position is definitely not the same and the final sounds are definitely not the same either.

Depends on. In Hochdeutsch Ich isn't close to "sh" (german "Isch"). The "sh"(german "Isch") is more a onsite dialect.

Something historical: Ich bin ein Berliner /I'm from Berlin/ Mi estas Berlinosurlokuloj. He got the Hochdeutsch "Ich" very well.

en.wikipedia.org

ceigered:1) put your tongue in an "l" position (e.g. as if you are about to say "lah").
2) blow air through even while your tongue is in that position
so basically, it's a fricative version of "l". (it should sound something like "hl/shl"), just as "s" is a fricative version of "t" and "ch (loCH)" is a fricative version of "k".
(listen to the first show of this here radio series).

erinja:The sound is a little similar but the ch in Ich is a little closer to "sh" (but with your tongue in an unusual position), and the ll is a little closer to "hl".

Ah, that makes better sense, together with the BBC segment. Definitely not German 'ch' but 'breathed' 'l' so that it become a sort of 'hl'. Thanks! John Wells' page contains the following that I found helpful: "you have to narrow the gap between the side rims of the tongue and the side teeth. Try to do this while saying a long [l̥]*. It should change into [ɬ]." The rest of that page, because of the technical terms is difficult for me to follow.
* 'l' as in 'claw' or 'please' when said by speakers of standard English, apparently.

qwertz:Depends on. In Hochdeutsch Ich isn't close to "sh" (german "Isch"). The "sh"(german "Isch") is more a onsite dialect.

I didn't say that it WAS the "sh" sound. I said that it was "a little closer to the sh" sound, which is totally different.

I think another method is to say "tl(insert vowel of preference here)". Even though it's not in English at all, if you try to pronounce an L after a T you end up with a sort of similar sound to the Welsh "ll" after the T rather than a pure one.

Regarding what I said about "ch", I apologise for my lack of explanation - basically I was trying show that "ll" is a fricative in the same position as L, without resorting to the technical terms, by using examples in other places of articulation such as velar etc. They certainly sound nothing alike (at least to me), but the way they are created with the restricted whistley airflow is the same I guess.

To my knowledge, "ch" is not a lateral fricative but a velar fricative. To be lateral, the consonant has to have the air escaping out through the sides of the tongue, but "ch" doesn't really do that, air escapes off the middle ridge of the tongue instead.

ceigered:To my knowledge, "ch" is not a lateral fricative but a velar fricative.

That sounds like the Scots 'ch' rather the German 'ch', nicht wahr?

Miland:

ceigered:To my knowledge, "ch" is not a lateral fricative but a velar fricative.

That sounds like the Scots 'ch' rather the German 'ch', nicht wahr?

Ja, das ist wahr (aber nicht wie "ch" in "nicht", wie "ch" in "doch" oder "ach nein!")

--

Yeah, that's right (but not like "ch" in "nicht", like "ch" in "doch" or "ach nein!") - I should add that I don't speak German, so let's hope that dictionary was correct

erinja:

qwertz:Depends on. In Hochdeutsch Ich isn't close to "sh" (german "Isch"). The "sh"(german "Isch") is more a onsite dialect.

I didn't say that it WAS the "sh" sound. I said that it was "a little closer to the sh" sound, which is totally different.

But a very small close. Or, probably I didn't get the right english "sh" pronouncation. Sorry for that. If I take a look at that piece of paper which is reclaimed to be the pronouncation draft for the J.F.K.'s "Ich bin ein Berliner". J.F.K. also tried to notice the correct German de-de "Ich" pronouncation with a "sh". So I assume I have to make some research about my owns correct english pronouncation. Hhm.

ceigered:

Miland:

ceigered:To my knowledge, "ch" is not a lateral fricative but a velar fricative.

That sounds like the Scots 'ch' rather the German 'ch', nicht wahr?

Ja, das ist wahr (aber nicht wie "ch" in "nicht", wie "ch" in "doch" oder "ach nein!")

--

Yeah, that's right (but not like "ch" in "nicht", like "ch" in "doch" or "ach nein!") - I should add that I don't speak German, so let's hope that dictionary was correct

Hhm, it's interesting how the starting vocal "i,o,a" influences the followoing "ch" (the de-de German one). I was testing it right now. Interesting, interesting. During learning foreign languages someones gots a lot of additional different views to someones own motherlanguage. Thanks ceigered for that.

I don't feel competent to say something about the scotish "ch". But some time ago I met somebody who cames from the english-scottish "border". And he did pronounce the vocals the same way like a German (de-de). I.e. "cup" like the Kup-pel. Not the english cup.

qwertz: Interesting, interesting. During learning foreign languages someones gots a lot of additional different views to someones own motherlanguage.

That's the thing I like about these English forums, because there are so many non-native speakers you get to see a new perspective of English quite often (you don't get quite the same phenomenon with Esperanto though, or so I feel ).

I don't feel competent to say something about the scotish "ch". But some time ago I met somebody who cames from the english-scottish "border". And he did pronounce the vocals the same way like a German (de-de). I.e. "cup" like the Kup-pel. Not the english cup.

I have found some vary strong scottish accents before that pronounce words almost as they are spelt before - an Australian radio show duo, Hamish and Andy, are currently having a caravan trip in the UK (if you see a caravan called "Sir Vancelaot", that's them), and in the preparation for the trip they made sure they got some exposure to some fair dinkum British and Irish accents (it's joked that the most linguistically diverse place on the globe is rural England ). For the Scottish speaker, this is what they got (using Esperanto writing):

its a briĥt munliĥt niĥt t'niĥt (complete with rolling Rs)

EDIT: feel free to replace those "i"s with "e"s and it still sounds somewhat the same as what he said.

(It's a bright moonlight night tonight - normally pronounced "its a brajt muunlajt najt t'najt").

The phoneticness of Scottish English is one reason I think it should be the main English dialect .

(After the Scottish speaker, they had a Welsh speaker give them another sentence to practice, but the unsuspecting Hamish and Andy had no idea that it was actually in WELSH )

You might find this interesting qwertz:
scots-online.org
Pronunciation guide from the same site (a bit ambiguous though)

(regarding "cup", I believe that in Scotland, the short 'u' sound (like in "but", which in say Australia sounds more like a "ah") is more like an "o", but sometimes sounds like a short "u" (put) sound too).

ceigered:
You might find this interesting qwertz:
scots-online.org
Pronunciation guide from the same site (a bit ambiguous though)

(regarding "cup", I believe that in Scotland, the short 'u' sound (like in "but", which in say Australia sounds more like a "ah") is more like an "o", but sometimes sounds like a short "u" (put) sound too).

Thanks ceigered

Poooh, that's why I like e-o. It has a clear pronouncation. But its not cleared completly from someones nationality dialect pronouncation.

Returning to the Youtube video song about how to say
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, it seems to me that whereas 'll'' at the beginning of a syllable (as in 'Llan') sounds like 'hl', at the end of one (as in 'pwll', 'gyll' and 'bwll') it is more like the German ch (not the Scottish ch), except that the part of the tongue that is pressed against the teeth is nearer the front than with the German 'ch'. Any opinions from people who have listened to the song?