I’m impressed! You three are native English speakers and think quite similarly about small kids and gender. I can’t imagine any native Spanish speaker saying anything like that. If you ever called a babe “it” you would be considered sort of a heartless bastard. As a matter of fact it is considered polite to show interest for the newborn: “¿Hembra o varón?; ¡Qué hermoso(a) niño(a)! ¡Dios lo guarde!” (Female or male? What a beautiful boy (girl)! God bless him (her)!). Most of the time you don’t have to ask the parents the sex of the child; they dress their offspring as a girl or a boy from the very first day. Even more radical: 90% of the girls get their ear lobes pierced by gold earrings before they even leave the hospital!!! In the case of male newborns, the parents could proudly show his genitalia to their intimate friends and make funny comments: “hold your cows that my bull is out there free!”

How is it possible that you consider them “neutral gendered” at this early age???

Mendacapote:I’m impressed! You three are native English speakers and think quite similarly about small kids and gender. I can’t imagine any native Spanish speaker saying anything like that. If you ever called a babe “it” you would be considered sort of a heartless bastard. As a matter of fact it is considered polite to show interest for the newborn: “¿Hembra o varón?; ¡Qué hermoso(a) niño(a)! ¡Dios lo guarde!” (Female or male? What a beautiful boy (girl)! God bless him (her)!). Most of the time you don’t have to ask the parents the sex of the child; they dress their offspring as a girl or a boy from the very first day. Even more radical: 90% of the girls get their ear lobes pierced by gold earrings before they even leave the hospital!!! In the case of male newborns, the parents could proudly show his genitalia to their intimate friends and make funny comments: “hold your cows that my bull is out there free!”

How is it possible that you consider them “neutral gendered” at this early age???

I can only speak for myself, but that seems like a culture where gender roles are very strong? Not a culture where it's easy to be different. I'm surrounded by non-standard gender roles, including my own. My girlfriend is transgendered, I myself am bi-sexual, though I usually present as a lesbian, etc. Coming to realize for myself who I am, and breaking the much looser gender stereotypes that I grew up with was difficult, but I think that if my parents had even more of their own self-image tied up into my sex and gender, it would have been much harder. Is it very hard in your culture for people who are gender different to be accepted?

DesertNaiad:
I can only speak for myself, but that seems like a culture where gender roles are very strong?

I think many South American cultures must be like this.

"Oh, aren't you a little darling" goes over better than "What is it?"

Yes! Interestingly enough, though, even though everyone probably has this problem, parents get offended if you guess wrong. For example, a friend of mine has a friend who is a very orthodox Jew. Many very religious Jews don't cut the hair of their sons until they reach three years old (for a variety of reasons). This friend was such a person, and she brought her son with her when visiting my friend. Her son was 2 or 2.5 at the time, so his hair was quite long, and she had it tied back into a ponytail or something, to keep it out of his face. We were all at the synagogue one morning when someone came up to her and complimented her on how cute her 'daughter' was. The friend got extremely offended. "Can't they tell he has a boy's face? Who could possibly think he's a girl??" I was too polite to say anything, but no, I don't believe you can tell the difference between a two-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl based on their face. And if I saw a little kid with a ponytail running around, I would also assume it was a girl, in spite of the pants (that is, until I saw the mother and realized she was wearing a wig, at which time I would know exactly what the situation was!).

I guess this friend would never have this situation in her neighborhood in Brooklyn, but in Cambridge, Massachusetts, things are considerably more diverse!

In the case of male newborns, the parents could proudly show his genitalia to their intimate friends and make funny comments: “hold your cows that my bull is out there free!”

I would be shocked if someone did this to me, even if they were a very close friend. I think I would not even know how to respond, I would just stand there with my mouth hanging open and a dumb look on my face. I can't imagine American parents ever discussing their childrens' genitalia with anyone. Talk about cultural differences!

I can only speak for myself, but that seems like a culture where gender roles are very strong? Not a culture where it's easy to be different. I'm surrounded by non-standard gender roles, including my own. My girlfriend is transgendered, I myself am bi-sexual, though I usually present as a lesbian, etc. Coming to realize for myself who I am, and breaking the much looser gender stereotypes that I grew up with was difficult, but I think that if my parents had even more of their own self-image tied up into my sex and gender, it would have been much harder. Is it very hard in your culture for people who are gender different to be accepted?

Yes, definitely our culture is very strong gendered, but you can be whatever you want, it’s your choice. Most lesbians are nice looking or even gorgeous women dressed with feminine clothing, so there isn’t any doubt about their gender. We don’t confuse gender with sexual preferences: you will always be a girl, no matter who you love. There are some “testicled” lesbians, with strong bodybuilder appearance and masculine clothes who are considered just sort of eccentric girls, but their gender won’t either be in discussion. Nevertheless there is a very small minority of gay women who get totally transgendered and are very difficult to be identified as women… well in that case, they just became “men”. I remember I once watched a documentary about a transgendered woman who got totally bearded and hairy… and started dating guys after ten years of being a “man”. Isn’t that curious? I know that story is exceptional, but it somehow shows the complexity of the human mind and the diversity of sexual behaviors and preferences. I have noticed that some “pure lesbians” get furious when men intend to seduce them or their partners, and try to look even more masculine and aggressive to keep them away. I had a lesbian friend who once confessed to me that she often felt insecure because her girlfriend was bisexual and she knew she had fantasies with men. The truth here is that in our culture lesbian are always seen as women and men frequently try their chances. The general feeling here is that lesbians are or unavailable women or more difficultly “to get laid with” women.

I think I would not even know how to respond, I would just stand there with my mouth hanging open and a dumb look on my face.

I tell you what you (probably) would do: You’d pray to God for the new life and you'd see that little human being as a gendered person! You’d see his tiny thing peeing all over, including his own face, gasping desperately for breath… and you’d laugh to death! Perhaps that’s exactly what it would take for you to start wanting a babe of your own…

Mendacapote:I tell you what you (probably) would do: You’d pray to God for the new life and you'd see that little human being as a gendered person! You’d see his tiny thing peeing all over, including his own face, gasping desperately for breath… and you’d laugh to death! Perhaps that’s exactly what it would take for you to start wanting a babe of your own…

Obviously if I saw someone, for example, changing a baby's diaper, and I saw the baby's genitals, I'd think "a boy" or "a girl". Or a baby dressed very obviously in pink with flowers, or in blue with trucks, and I would know the gender. Even knowing the baby's gender, though, it would be hard for me not to call the baby "it". I don't even really see babies as especially cute, and when people claim to see family resemblance between adults and babies, I just can't see it at all.

But in American culture, I think people would think it shocking to make jokes about a baby's genitalia, and to show off the baby's genitalia to other people, even if they are close friends. Also, to suggest, even while joking, that girls should be protected from this boy because of his "very manly" genitals would likely be seen as sick and inappropriate. Perhaps it is due to this country's Puritan heritage, but even though it is understood that the baby is a boy or a girl, it is not really considered appropriate to think of them as sexual beings. I really don't think I'd see the baby as any more gendered after seeing their genitals. My overriding thought would be shock that the parents would say such a thing, and dismay that the parents thought it was OK to make jokes about their baby's genitals. This is obviously an emotional response based on my own cultural background; I know that Americans also do things that are considered shocking elsewhere. My reaction would also depend on who the parents were. If they were Americans, I'd be more offended than if they were foreign. If they were foreign-born, I would assume that what they just said was considered ok in their culture, and I would try hard not to look too shocked, since they probably don't realize that what they said would be considered inappropriate in the US.

I remember an American film: “Meet de Fockers” where the parents made some funny comments about the circumcision of their son... and they had even saved the small piece of skin in an album… Did you see that film? They were not latinoamericans, they were American Jews!

I think we better stop talking about this topic… because now I’m the one being shocked by your comments!

Mendacapote:I remember an American film: “Meet de Fockers” where the parents made some funny comments about the circumcision of their son... and they had even saved the small piece of skin in an album… Did you see that film? They were not latinoamericans, they were American Jews!

I didn't see the film. But it was a comedy, and the point was to be shocking. I can think of countless examples of comedy films that had similar scenes; it doesn't mean that those things happen in real life! I have never met a single Jew who would put the circumcision skin into a photo album, and everyone I know would find it disgusting (not to mention unhygienic) to do so.

I don't mean to imply that your culture is "bad" or "wrong". All I meant to say is that certain actions/sayings/jokes which may seem perfectly normal in one culture can be viewed as being extremely offensive in another culture. What is considered to be an acceptable comment about a newborn in Venezuela is not necessarily seen as acceptable in the US. I think the whole world saw this with great clarity when that Danish newspaper published images of the prophet Muhammed. In Christian countries, this sort of thing is not a big deal. We see Christian religious figures in political cartoons fairly regularly and hardly anyone is offended by it. In the Islamic world, the images of Muhammed were considered highly offensive, even ones that show him in a positive light, and many people reacted with shock and indignation (and even violence). I think it's important to understand that just because something is ok in country A doesn't mean it's also ok in country B, even if there are only good intentions all around.

I didn't see the film. But it was a comedy, and the point was to be shocking. I can think of countless examples of comedy films that had similar scenes; it doesn't mean that those things happen in real life! I have never met a single Jew who would put the circumcision skin into a photo album, and everyone I know would find it disgusting (not to mention unhygienic) to do so.

I wouldn’t say shocking, just funny. I wouldn’t be shocked by anyone saving a small piece of skin, a tooth, some hair, or whatsoever. Remember that we are mostly catholic and in our tradition the veneration of human relics is practiced. You’d be then shock by the veneration of body parts of saints! Here we have an uncorrupted naturally mummified nun (María de San José) who was claimed to be a saint, exposed in one of our churches. (http://www.slideshare.net/jant/santos-incorruptos/) So, if a Jew father saved the foreskin of his son in an album it wouldn’t cause me any shock or fun. The funny thing was what the said about the circumcision and the fact that the prepuce accidentally fell in one of the dishes…

We have to learn about the others without to much “shocking”. We are all human beings and the real shocking things are: murdering, hating, stealing, raping, judging, cheating, being selfish, etc.