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Ĉu with tio/tiu

від Leke, 18 травня 2011 р.

Повідомлення: 40

Мова: English

Chainy (Переглянути профіль) 18 травня 2011 р. 17:52:36

@Geo63

Seems you still haven't read my message properly. Take a deep breath and try again.

darkweasel (Переглянути профіль) 18 травня 2011 р. 17:54:49

Regardless of the flamewar between geo63 and Chainy:
Leke:
darkweasel:These translations are correct. If you want to convey the idea of proximity expressed by "this" put "chi" before or after the correlative.
So like, Ĉu ĉi tiu estas mia aŭto?
Yes, that's fine.

Chainy (Переглянути профіль) 18 травня 2011 р. 18:01:22

darkweasel:Regardless of the flamewar between geo63 and Chainy
rideto.gif

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 19 травня 2011 р. 09:52:34

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't you tend to use ĝi in contexts where you refer to a specific object in question when it has been previously mentioned/identified/talked about - whereas tio/tiu is used to identify/point to/introduce the object.

Anyway ĝi seems more specific, more concrete, less general.

I would expect the question Ĉu ĝi estas birdo if you were discussing for example a fossil that was difficult to classify. Is it a bird or a reptile?

If there were an unidientified knock at the door then I would expect Ĉu tio estas la leterportisto - is that the postman.

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 19 травня 2011 р. 13:01:18

I agree with you, sudanglo.

However in old Esperanto texts, I find that "ĝi" is used much more frequently than it is today. Sometimes Zamenhof used "ĝi" in cases where "tio" seems more appropriate to the modern ear.

What I normally tell my students is that "ĝi" is a pronoun, meaning that it replaces a noun. I tell them that normally I don't recommend using "ĝi" unless you can name the exact noun that it's replacing (the same way that if you use "he" or "she", you can name the exact person whose name you are replacing with a pronoun)

Due to the historical usage of "ĝi" which varies slightly from today's usage, I don't normally call students wrong when they do it the old way, but I normally recommend against it.

chicago1 (Переглянути профіль) 20 травня 2011 р. 18:44:15

Not quite on the exact same topic, but what about using "tio" to replace a predicate phrase as we do with the word "that" in English?
e.g.
"I want to call her."
"Don't do that."
In Eo:
"Mi volas telefoni shin."
"Ne faru tio." (one friend suggested "Ne jeno faru", which looks cool but nor sure it's right)

Miland (Переглянути профіль) 20 травня 2011 р. 18:59:05

chicago1:.. what about using "tio" to replace a predicate phrase ..
I wrote an answer here (2011-05-20 18:54:59)

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 20 травня 2011 р. 19:34:30

It would be "Ne faru tion"

You can definitely use "tio" to replace a phrase.

chicago1 (Переглянути профіль) 20 травня 2011 р. 20:45:41

Got it. Thanks.

On the use of "tial," does one use it to say "Tell me why you called her":
"Diru al mi tial vi telefonis shin."

(and if so, am I forgetting an accusative "n" somewhere here?)

darkweasel (Переглянути профіль) 20 травня 2011 р. 20:47:01

chicago1:
On the use of "tial," does one use it to say "Tell me why you called her":
"Diru al mi tial vi telefonis shin."
No, you use kial here - just like in English.

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