Messaggi: 9
Lingua: English
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 05 agosto 2007 21:44:29
"Se konsideri la rapidecon de la nuna disvastigxo, la tuta lando estos malsana pli frue ol uzebla vakcino disponeblos."
The question is, how to translate Se konsideri. The context suggests something like 'If one were to consider', so that the phrase might be a contraction.
Page 395 of PMEG (in chapter 27 I-Verboj, section 6 kvazau cxefverboj) does indeed suggest that se+infinitive X-i = se+(oni or other pronoun)+X-u, so that Se konsideri can be expanded Se ni konsideru, and so translated as I suggest.
This point is not in the examples in section 86 of La tuta Esperanto, though it appears as the fourth example in section 20.2.5 of the Detala lernu!-gramatiko.
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 06 agosto 2007 01:40:50
Not to say that it shouldn't become more common!
I might translate it as "Se oni konsiderus" ("if one would consider") but I think "se ni konsideru" is an equally good alternate rendering.
It is a rare usage, which is why "La tuta Esperanto" probably doesn't include it.
The detailed lernu grammar is essentially an abbreviated form of the PMEG, so those two sources will always agree with one another.
trojo (Mostra il profilo) 09 agosto 2007 13:57:24
Miland:Reading a well-known short novel by Claude Piron I have come across the following sentence about a new disease:If I were translating it into English I would probably render se konsideri as "considering" or "regarding" (So, "considering the speed of the current spread,..."). The construction "if one would consider the speed of the current spread" just seems kind of awkward in English.
"Se konsideri la rapidecon de la nuna disvastigxo, la tuta lando estos malsana pli frue ol uzebla vakcino disponeblos."
The question is, how to translate Se konsideri. The context suggests something like 'If one were to consider', so that the phrase might be a contraction.
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 09 agosto 2007 14:53:14
trojo: If I were translating it into English I would probably render se konsideri as "considering" or "regarding"Yes; I do not know whether se konsideri is a contraction (more comfortable for E-o apologists), or an example of an E-o idiom, which has arise out of popular usage, but is not a logical consequence of the grammar. If anyone knows, please tell us!
lagwagon555 (Mostra il profilo) 10 agosto 2007 05:24:36
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 10 agosto 2007 08:00:15
lagwagon555:I dont know if its just where I was bought up, but saying 'If, to consider...' makes sense. Is this just me?That's a very interesting observation, because I don't recall seeing such a phrase in English in print. Does it occur in any film that you know? My question now is, is this an NZ English idiom, or is it an import from a European language? The latter would explain how it got readily taken up by E-o.
lagwagon555 (Mostra il profilo) 10 agosto 2007 13:48:24
To be honest, I cant even remeber saying it myself. But if a book read "If, to consider la impact of inflation on the world bond market...", I would not think twice about it.
Have I gone completely mad?
mnlg (Mostra il profilo) 10 agosto 2007 14:39:06
lagwagon555:"If, to consider la impact of inflation on the world bond market...", I would not think twice about it.I would.
lagwagon555 (Mostra il profilo) 11 agosto 2007 12:13:25
Yes, I think I have gone mad